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The Null Sec Myth

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Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
#81 - 2011-11-14 17:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Comrade Commizzar
Malcanis wrote:
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Just curious why you people seem so desperate to convince highsec dwellers to risk Zero?


I'm equally curious why people like you seem so desperate to convince highsec dwellers not to risk Zero.


Malcanis:
I'm not trying to keep highsec dwellers out of zero. CCP has done a good job of that without my help. I am criticizing CCP's game mechanics that are not conducive to new players subscribing to Eve and staying to compete in Zero because of compelling game content.

If CCP wants to re-energize Eve and Zero they need to do several things:

1) Eliminate or severly reduce warp bubble effectiveness. If a players have to spend a year just to figure out how to get past the front door, is anyone surprised when they quit in less than six months?



Hey, if you don't like warp bubbles, why aren't you mining and missioning in lo-sec? With the increased rewards over hi-sec, and no nasty warp bubbles to spoil everything, not to mention freely available NPC stations all over the place, it's a paradise for the individual player! The huge numbers of non-aligned players making a living in bubble-free lo-sec space are surely a testament to the workability of your argument!

EDIT: BTW I moved to 0.0 when i was less than 3 months into EVE. Please don't make up random statistics to "support" your argument.


Mal:
I too was in Cloud Ring within 3 months of starting Eve in 2005. So what? How does that fact change the barriers that keep new players from joining in the zero fray in ways that will motivate them to stay subscribed and not quit out of boredom or frustration?Mining in losec? Surely you jest.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#82 - 2011-11-14 18:17:23 UTC
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Just curious why you people seem so desperate to convince highsec dwellers to risk Zero?


I'm equally curious why people like you seem so desperate to convince highsec dwellers not to risk Zero.


Malcanis:
I'm not trying to keep highsec dwellers out of zero. CCP has done a good job of that without my help. I am criticizing CCP's game mechanics that are not conducive to new players subscribing to Eve and staying to compete in Zero because of compelling game content.

If CCP wants to re-energize Eve and Zero they need to do several things:

1) Eliminate or severly reduce warp bubble effectiveness. If a players have to spend a year just to figure out how to get past the front door, is anyone surprised when they quit in less than six months?



Hey, if you don't like warp bubbles, why aren't you mining and missioning in lo-sec? With the increased rewards over hi-sec, and no nasty warp bubbles to spoil everything, not to mention freely available NPC stations all over the place, it's a paradise for the individual player! The huge numbers of non-aligned players making a living in bubble-free lo-sec space are surely a testament to the workability of your argument!

EDIT: BTW I moved to 0.0 when i was less than 3 months into EVE. Please don't make up random statistics to "support" your argument.


Mal:
I too was in Cloud Ring within 3 months of starting Eve in 2005. So what? How does that fact change the barriers that keep new players from joining in the zero fray in ways that will motivate them to stay subscribed and not quit out of boredom or frustration?

Mining in losec? Surely you jest.


Why wouldn't people mne in lo-sec? After all, it's bubbles that keep people out of 0.0, and there are no bubbles in lo-sec. So surely people barred from 0.0 should be flocking to lo-sec right?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#83 - 2011-11-14 18:22:25 UTC
Quote:
Why wouldn't people mne in lo-sec? After all, it's bubbles that keep people out of 0.0, and there are no bubbles in lo-sec. So surely people barred from 0.0 should be flocking to lo-sec right?


Indeed.

I'm quite sure it has nothing to do with being risk adverse, unwilling or unable to maintain a minimal amount of situational awareness, unwilling or unable to cooperate with other players, or a lack of combat or combat evasion experience.

I'll have to get back to Low Sec again soon, it must be a paradise now.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
#84 - 2011-11-14 18:29:34 UTC
Malcanis:

Don't understand why you are fixated on mining?

The people I am talking about are highsec dwellers that would like to try to build a POS in zero and survive there in their Corporation. Mining only plays a part of that picture.
Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
#85 - 2011-11-14 18:31:37 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
Why wouldn't people mne in lo-sec? After all, it's bubbles that keep people out of 0.0, and there are no bubbles in lo-sec. So surely people barred from 0.0 should be flocking to lo-sec right?


Indeed.

I'm quite sure it has nothing to do with being risk adverse, unwilling or unable to maintain a minimal amount of situational awareness, unwilling or unable to cooperate with other players, or a lack of combat or combat evasion experience.

I'll have to get back to Low Sec again soon, it must be a paradise now.

*************

and your ability to do so is due only to your "Leet E-PEENess"... I'm certain of that. Roll
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#86 - 2011-11-14 18:36:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Mukuro Gravedigger wrote:
Fact or myth?

I have read numerous times on the (old) forums that pure industrial players are considered more as slaves to the corporation instead of as an equal member. Their goods or minerals are expected to go to the corp either free or at such a rate that running missions in Empire would be more profitable. Industrial players are expected to partake in attacks, defense, or roams at the whims of the directors. And most industrial players are shunned since macros can perform the tasks tiredlessly without question, much less bolting with corp assests.


Ive seen corps where they combine the minerals and divide the money sold by the number of people who were mining (regardless of how LONG they mined, so the guy that mined for 15 mins gets the game as the guy that mined for three days)

Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
Why wouldn't people mne in lo-sec? After all, it's bubbles that keep people out of 0.0, and there are no bubbles in lo-sec. So surely people barred from 0.0 should be flocking to lo-sec right?


Indeed.

I'm quite sure it has nothing to do with being risk adverse, unwilling or unable to maintain a minimal amount of situational awareness, unwilling or unable to cooperate with other players, or a lack of combat or combat evasion experience.

I'll have to get back to Low Sec again soon, it must be a paradise now.


Or flying in ships that are basically untankable by design amirite?

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Trusty Jutspezic
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2011-11-14 21:04:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Trusty Jutspezic
Comrade Commizzar wrote:

You for one are happy to be a Droog who has settled for the crumbs off the table while the leadership parties on.
Sort of like one of those dogs you see in movies about feudal times where the Lords and Ladies throw you scraps from the feast table.

idgi I get paid to lose ships stupidly and have fun and my directorate works long hours creating content for thousands of players why should I be resentful.

To any new players looking to get into a 0.0 alliance: Train dictors, if you've already got supports trained up you can be in them in a month or two and once you're good with them you can write your own admission to pretty much any corp.

E: You're also the bastard that makes every stealth bomber/recon/blockade runner cry.
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#88 - 2011-11-14 21:12:05 UTC
Every few months I do the pirate epic arcs, and though I have had some pretty disastrous/hilarious losses it's always been due to impatience or a failure to think. That's just something I'm prone to do and it's worse when I'm by myself.

I've never really felt overwhelmed by it, it makes the whole thing more exciting really, and I believe that an individual in nullsec isn't any more at a disadvantage than they should expect to be.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#89 - 2011-11-14 21:23:40 UTC
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Malcanis:

Don't understand why you are fixated on mining?

The people I am talking about are highsec dwellers that would like to try to build a POS in zero and survive there in their Corporation. Mining only plays a part of that picture.


And again, surely they're doing that in lo-sec?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
#90 - 2011-11-14 21:57:26 UTC
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Mining in losec? Surely you jest.


I know of two systems in low-sec Minmatar systems with Dark Glitter ice fields. They are in a cluster of eight systems with one stargate directly to high-sec and one other leading into additional low-sec space.

Every time I have wandered into these areas, I have not encountered any more than a dozen pilots spread out in the eight systems. In fact, most of them hang in the system abutting high-sec.

I think a sufficiently motivated partnership of combat and exhumers should be able to take advantage of that situation.

I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
Dunbar Hulan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2011-11-14 22:08:57 UTC
Where is said system ? I'm looking for a place to hang out in from time to time.

 ** Manchester United - Paul Scholes= Genius**
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
#92 - 2011-11-14 22:16:23 UTC
Dunbar Hulan wrote:
Where is said system ? I'm looking for a place to hang out in from time to time.


Hmmm.....what's it worth to you?

I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#93 - 2011-11-14 23:18:58 UTC
As the leader of one of the older currently high sec-ish miner/carebear/indy alliances I think the OP was very accurate in his assesment of common 0.0 myths.

We were in nul twice in our history. The first in Syndicate and the second out in a drone region.

What I found was the rewards could be great and when it was all going well it was the safest I've ever been in Eve. However, what I grew tired of was the politics. If you want to make a single area your home and you aren't planning on shifting your focus from mining and industry your daily life became all about the politics. (assuming you aren't in a very large and combat savy group).

Your continued safety was entirely dependent on stable relationships not only with your blues but your blues blues. We had gotten into the drone region just as the political landscape changed dramatically. All the relationship that made us able to operate there were suddenly a net negative and we became defacto "targets of opportunity" of the new "boss".

So we left and haven't gone back. For me I just didn't want to worry about the "politics" of living there.

Still, for a younger pod pilot finding your way in the 'verse, life in the black can be a valuable experience. I'd suggest trying it as part of as more established alliance already there or if you go as part of a small corportation, keep your clone current and don't undock anything you are going to be sad about losing. Keep in mind, risk means rewards in Eve, try to keep it fun and if after you've given it a try there is no shame in deciding Empire or low sec is more to your liking.

If CCP ever gets treaties you might even run into some "BEEP" members out in the back. And if you aren't red, you'll have nothing to fear from us as we remain committed to the one thing no one has seemed to make work in 0.0 NRDS. Big smile

Issler
Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
#94 - 2011-11-15 02:42:13 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Malcanis:

Don't understand why you are fixated on mining?

The people I am talking about are highsec dwellers that would like to try to build a POS in zero and survive there in their Corporation. Mining only plays a part of that picture.


And again, surely they're doing that in lo-sec?

************

No they aren't are they. And you seem to think that it has nothing to do with the hot drop that will visit them for LULZ.
You know maybe if you read the rest of my posts instead of trying to nitpick them you would know that I also said CCP needed to get rid of local chat and provide cloaks for POS so small Corps could have a chance at surviving for longer than the time it takes to light a cyno.Blink
Elyssa MacLeod
Doomheim
#95 - 2011-11-15 05:14:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Elyssa MacLeod wrote:
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Lets just say that I have never had any problems funding my characters.

so no then?
Cause farming lvl IVs will net you a nice, reliable money stream.
…which you need for… what, exactly?
If the money is enough to keep doing what you want (which is what he said), why do you need more?

In fact, if the money is enough to keep doing what you want, then yes, it is indeed nice and reliable enough a stream.


um yeah it is...
the thread is about "the myth of null sec"

though technically, its a qq about gate camps.

My point was you can either do lvl 4s/incursions (which threads crop up about dozens of times a day qqing how you can get so much more isk doing 4s vs stuff in null) or you can go to null and do stuff there and it seems to me (especially from those mentioned threads) that missioning gets you more, regardless of a implant that drops now and then.

Unless of course all those threads you see are ALL wrong, and there IS no discrepancy between lvl 4 mission running / Incursions and null money.

GM Homonoia: Suicide ganks are a valid and viable tactic in EVE.

Where is your God now carebear?
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#96 - 2011-11-15 05:19:05 UTC
Funny story that is somewhat relevant:


A few corps back, our CEO (dude's name insnt important cause he sold that character after this - no joke) decided he wanted a POS in low sec. With the intention of then moving into 0.0. We were a highsec corp, mostly mission runners and miners, a few ppl interested in PVP, and had delusions of going to null.
We'd joined a fairly large industrial alliance the day before.
They had no PVP corps

Anyhoo, our CEO finds this neat little pocket of lowsec surrounded by jumps and jumps of highsec. He decides this is the perfect place to put it. A friend an I scout out the area and tell him it belongs to S I L E N T. an we really dont wanna **** with them.

He says this:
"Its OK, theres highsec all around the low sec area. The only way they could get cap ships into the area would be to have built them in the low sec pocket an that would be stupid."
-mind you I had at this point never even SEEN a cap ship, an had no idea how jump drives even worked, assumed (lol) he knew what he was talking about, I let it go. My friend, was trying to talk him out of the idea for a week.

The POS is anchored, and onlined. During this process, a Proteus is seem in system, but it doesnt bother anyone. We decide to name the thing something like Aegis Shield POS and are all proud that we have a low sec POS. My friend is saying we may wanna think about leaving the corp.

An hour later...
Im on Teamspeak when a random guy in the POS starts yelling about ships warping into the system, and seeing reds, stuff like that. Im curious, engage a jump clone, grab a shuttle, and hop to the POS.
There was a Revelation, another DN and a good 300 support ships all in a tight cluster around the POS, blowing the hell out of it.
The fight was short (figuratively speaking), we hadnt had the chance to put much into the thing so it didnt last long, we didnt even have guns on it. The alliance guys kinda shook their heads at our CEO's stupidity, and was gonna move on.

Then they war decced the alliance

Our CEO went "Well... good luck with that guys, im gonna leave an go to 0.0 to see how the big corps work"
He docked, an I didnt see him again for like 6 months

We quit the corp the night of the wardec, given that the writing was on the wall for that corp, I watched S I L E N T.'s killboards for a few weeks afterwards, an yeah they were having fun.

To this day, the CEO thinks this was the funniest thing he ever did in EVE.

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#97 - 2011-11-15 07:08:13 UTC
Still, no matter what anyone says, I have thrown enough disposable alt/frigates at 0.0 gate camps to see camping as an activity that must be as boring as mining. If campers think they are PVPers, and find some reason to look down at miners, they are somewhat misguided.

Let there be no myth about one thing: there are just as many people in 0.0 who have as little to do (and probably just as bored) as people in high sec.


We should all go beg for some live events after the next big patch.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2011-11-15 09:15:55 UTC
A lot of people are saying that getting into nullsec is almost impossible with all the bubbles and camps.

This is only true if you are trying to get in there as a solo pilot, not part of a nullsec corp. This problem is also very easy to solve: Join a nullsec corp. They have the logistics/scouts/knowledge how to get you stuff there.

Don't take the harde route and goto null all by yourself. It can be fun, but it is very hard for a new player. Joining a corp first will make this much easier.

I live in lowsec and I don't have much nullsec experience, I only lived there a couple of months. But I never had any problems getting in or out nullsec. I only had one account back then and there were always people only that helped me scout when I needed it.

Note to new players: When in a nullsec alliance/corp you have access to intel channels. These channels allow you to monitor the most important systems without a scout, making your job of moving around a lot more easy.

TLDR: Living in nullsec is not nearly as hard as all the trolls make it seem to be.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#99 - 2011-11-15 09:19:52 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Still, no matter what anyone says, I have thrown enough disposable alt/frigates at 0.0 gate camps to see camping as an activity that must be as boring as mining. If campers think they are PVPers, and find some reason to look down at miners, they are somewhat misguided.

Let there be no myth about one thing: there are just as many people in 0.0 who have as little to do (and probably just as bored) as people in high sec.


We should all go beg for some live events after the next big patch.




it really is.
there is a reason no one really does it except for fleets waiting for other fleets to fly into their trap. honestly, nullsec gate camps are incredibly rare.

though there was one camp that i certainly had a blast partaking in. that time all the CFC's enemies got cocky and decided to jump a giant ball of titans into VFK, thinking they could headshot the goons. I have to say, it was hilarious warping from trapped titan to trapped titan, instantly showing up on grid every single time one started trying to burn out of their superbubbled POS shields at 5 m/s and watching them stop in defeat.
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
#100 - 2011-11-15 10:24:08 UTC
I only have a single issue with Null sec ... cost

It is a player run environment which means that you are taxed to buggery and beyond to sustain your alliance - but why should an alliance need so much money - cap and ship reimbursement programs.... right....

My main has been in 3 "real" alliances and in each I had to pay between 15-20% OVER jita prices for ships and mods with the excuse sry reason given that it costs a lot to get the mods to me in null-sec.

Null sec may help the wallet in terms of bounties from rats and other sources, but you have to bleed isk for the privilege.

I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking