Ships & Modules

Well, actually...

Thanks for having this in your plans for the future. Torps really need some love and tweaks. I really like the idea of tweaking the rof and the ammo capacity that you said. I was gonna suggest if it is possible to increase either their missile velocity or the flight time by at least 15% as a base not as in bonuses given by either ravens or typhoons. Right now with max skills and t2 rigs they can barely pass 45 to 50 km and that's with a average tank battleship such as the raven and his big navy issue brother. Im sure a bit of more range will be appretiated by the community even if it is 10 to 15 more kilometers. They will not have the range or speed of cruise missiles but they can be in between by having raw firepower and flexibility for the large missile group. What do you think Rise?? :)

Clearly you haven't used missiles lately. Things have changed. Rockets have a smaller explosion radius than LMLs by a large step, more than making up for the slightly lower velocity. HAMs have a smaller radius *and* faster explosion velocity. Both of those were a recent change, Cruises/torps (and citadel variants) being the only thing that remain different, and they haven't been "rebalanced" lately.



And this is about the extent of what I want changed aside from the damage application. Those are the only things I think need adjusting. The fitting is way out of whack, especially when you compare to Cruises and the relation between short range and long range at small and medium size.

No, range is poor and doesn't follow the pattern you'd expect from smaller missiles.

Your basic Rocket's stats are 2.25 km/s for 2s (4.5 km range). HAM: 2.25 km/s for 4s (9 km range). Torpedo: 1.5 km/s for 6s (9 km range). So they reach no further than HAMs, but take longer to get there, when you'd expect the same velocity and a base range of about 13.5 km.

Now, long range missiles: Light: 3.75 km/s for 5s (18.75 km range). Heavy: 4.3 km/s for 6.5s (27.95 km range). Cruise: 4.7 km/s for 14s (65.8 km). Note that Heavies and Cruises have had their range nerfed over the last few patches (though CMs had their speed buffed a lot).

Comparing long and short ranged:

Short Long Ratio
Light....4.5...18.75...4.1667
Heavy....9.0...27.95...3.1056
BS.......9.0...65.8....7.3111

One of these ratios isn't even a little bit like the others.

As a matter of comparison, here are the range stats of tech I lasers (of the biggest type of each size), optimal/falloff (in km). Tachyons listed separately because they break the pattern (and have always had the fitting to match):

Pulse Beam Ratio
Small.....5/ 2...10/ 4...2.0
Medium...10/ 4...20/ 8...2.0
Large....20/ 8...40/16...2.0
Tach.............44/20


Notice how (aside from Tachyons) there's a nice progression here. Hybrids follow the same pattern except that rails' optimal is eight times that of blasters rather than two (and falloff 2.4 times rather than two). Projectile weapons also follow the same progression by size, doubling in reach with each step (but artillery outranges autocannons by a factor of ten for optimal and 1.82 for falloff).

So, it's blindingly obvious that torpedoes 'should' have a range of 18 km (though I'd be perfectly happy with 13.5 km via a velocity increase), and that long range missiles have been hacked to hell and back.

Now, when comparing missile ranges to guns (which I've not done, above), we have to remember that missile skills give up to 1.5 times flight time and velocity, for 2.25 times the base range, whereas gun skills only give 1.25 times optimal and falloff. However, only rigs improve missile range, while rigs and modules increase gun ranges. Range extension rigs seem uncommon for most applications, but 1-2 range/tracking mods for guns are common. To complicate matters even more, guns commonly use ammo that modifies range, and TII and meta guns get more optimal (not that this means much for blasters and autocannons). Thus it's very hard to really say whether torpedoes have reasonable range compared to guns, but when even most blaster BS can load up Null and be at one multiple of falloff whilst outranging torpedoes firing Javelin, I think something is wrong.

Torpedo damage is probably fine, though the difference in DPS between a small fast target (even ignoring 'so fast it outruns the torps', which isn't actually that fast) and a large heavily webbed target might be too great. I wouldn't say no to buffs to explosion velocity and/or radius, but I'd expect them to come with a raw damage nerf.

Yes, it does sound off, and the reason for this is that it's not true. It's not even close to being true.

Triple-BCS HAM Navy Drake - 475 CN DPS and 557 Rage DPS.
Dual-MFS Ferox - 481 DPS (antimatter).

Drones excluded in both cases.

Multifreq and Conflag can reach 18km optimal without a hull bonus easily. That's the practical range of standard torps off an unbonused BS, and optimal + 1/2 falloff is still ~85% DPS, and that's ~24 km.

And you can toss extra range rigs on your gun boats too. Yes, DR will kick in, but you've got more range to start with, because the TEs/TCs will be fitted for the tracking bonuses as well - you aren't fitting them just for range.

The fact that one of them apply dps the same everywhere within it's range? Possibly the fact that on those hulls the drake most likely has more range vs antimatter?

Well we obviously have an issue with definition of "SHORT RANGE" weapon system.

What can be considered normal tbh, 34km Torps or 90km 800mm AC or 80km Scorch Pulse?

Now lets have a talk about short range large blasters vs torps and we might actually be talking about the ONLY two true short range weapon systems, which means by all means Pulse/ACs are way out of whack and have to be brought in line with torps/blasters, not the other way around and believe me I'd like to hit with my blasters at 80km without much effort.

AoE damage....

And... let's look at the Stealth Bombers. They have a huge 100% range buff because... well... torpedoes are short range weapons. /roll

Seriously, get rid of them.