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The Asymmetric Raven Hull

Author
Pyre leFay
Doomheim
#21 - 2011-11-14 15:31:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Pyre leFay
Vincent Gaines wrote:

Nothing is wrong with the Moa. Right?


Visually nope. Love the Moa. However it looks like a missile boat, not a Gun ship. Gila fixed that issue for me.
And perhaps the left wing pylon could get beefed up.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-11-14 15:32:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
1: So, you're saying there's nothing wrong with asymmetry as long as it is compensated for in the distribution of thrust? I agree.
2: Caldari rely on their shields to absorb damage, so this is pretty much irrelevant.
3: Are the two wings of an F16 interchangeable? No, they are not.
4: This is an argument for homogenising ship design, not for symmetry.
5: Beauty is not something the Caldari strive for in ship design. Besides, some degree of asymmetry can still be aesthetically appealing.


I was willing to entertain the prospect that you just like the current Raven design, but now I am forced to assume from your arguments that you are, in fact, either trolling or downright uninformed. None of these arguments comprise a convincing argument as to why anyone in their right mind would make an asymmetrical spaceship design.

1. The key word you seem to have missed here (despite the fact that you used it yourself) is "compensate". If there is a problem you have to compensate for written straight into your schematic because of your design choices, then it's gone beyond "you may want to rethink your design" - it goes straight into the territory of "F, rewrite this and see me after class".

2. Because shields, as we well know, are utterly infallible, and there's no reason to make a structurally integral ship underneath - I mean, let's face it, no Caldari ship in EVE has ever gone under 25% shield ever.

Are you kidding me? A ship's primary defensive system being an external energy field is not an excuse for lazy ship design. While you're at it, consider that an asymmetrical ship design makes it harder to shield homogenously.

3. But maintenance proceedures for each wing are symmetrical.

4. And what's the easiest way to homogenise ship design? Make it symmetrical.

5. Show me one notably asymmetrical woman you'd be willing to date.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-11-14 15:40:08 UTC
asymetric design is caldari design

dont ruin the game
Pyre leFay
Doomheim
#24 - 2011-11-14 15:41:50 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

5. Show me one notably asymmetrical woman you'd be willing to date.


http://en.valka.cz/files/entprise.jpg
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2011-11-14 15:45:21 UTC
Pyre leFay wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

5. Show me one notably asymmetrical woman you'd be willing to date.


http://en.valka.cz/files/entprise.jpg


While I share enthusiasm for aircraft carriers, that isn't a woman.

(Also, aircraft carriers are not spaceships, have a notable reason for their asymmetry, and are externally symmetrical below the flight deck)

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Pyre leFay
Doomheim
#26 - 2011-11-14 16:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Pyre leFay
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pyre leFay wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

5. Show me one notably asymmetrical woman you'd be willing to date.


http://en.valka.cz/files/entprise.jpg


While I share enthusiasm for aircraft carriers, that isn't a woman.

(Also, aircraft carriers are not spaceships, have a notable reason for their asymmetry, and are externally symmetrical below the flight deck)


Space craft have plenty of reasons to be equally asymmetrical. Not to the extent realistically as the raven, but sensor clusters, Weapon platforms. Drone bays and guidance centers. Power centers. Imagine our own craft to venture to mars It would likely look a cross between the ISS (Yeah, the roughly stationary ISS... orbiting 15 times a day at 28k kmph.) and Project Orion. Granted we don't have massive orbital assembly arrays and we build in sections. Yet even given the opportunity to build a extraplanetary craft start to finish in zero g. Form or function? Likely end up similar to the aircraft carrier but inverted due to its environment. Internally or compartmentally symmetrical and externally Asymmetrical.

What is fun about a asymmetrical exterior and uniformed interior modules. Some vitals can be housed in different locations like crew quarters, capacitor charges, shield buffers. While the exteriors are already planed for specific functions like sensors so the shell is easily recreated in mass like sea ships. Leaving the internals to be modified and updated in sections like what we have in t2.
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-11-14 16:30:00 UTC
Pyre leFay wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pyre leFay wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

5. Show me one notably asymmetrical woman you'd be willing to date.


http://en.valka.cz/files/entprise.jpg


While I share enthusiasm for aircraft carriers, that isn't a woman.

(Also, aircraft carriers are not spaceships, have a notable reason for their asymmetry, and are externally symmetrical below the flight deck)


Space craft have plenty of reasons to be equally asymmetrical. Not to the extent realistically as the raven, but sensor clusters, Weapon platforms. Drone bays and guidance centers. Power centers.


True, I agree wholeheartedly. But that's why the Rokh, the Drake, the Ferox, the Naga, the Scorpion (new), the Tengu, the Cormorant look good while still being asymettrical. In those cases, the asymmetry makes sense, like for the Naga, and Rokh, with their command centers off to one side. They have symmetrical populsion systems, and the small asymmetries can be easily explained as balanced by the internal weight distribution. Gun coverage, propulsion systems, overall hull structure have to be symmetrical. There's NO reason to do otherwise from an engineering standpoint.

The Raven is just silly. That's it. I do realize, however, that since the negative backlash from when they changed the scorpion, CCP isn't willing to spend time (and money) reworking model to just see them bashed by users. Adding detail to a model is probably a little less work.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2011-11-14 16:42:21 UTC
Pyre leFay wrote:
Space craft have plenty of reasons to be equally asymmetrical. Not to the extent realistically as the raven, but sensor clusters, Weapon platforms. Drone bays and guidance centers. Power centers.


All of which you would have no reason to distribute asymmetrically. Asymmetric weapons distribution in particular will almost inevitably leave your ship with either a blind spot in its SoI to which it cannot deliver ordinance or an inversion of the other problem with asymmetric ships - that of one side inevitably being more vulnerable to ordinance than the other: you'll get one side of the ship that it's less dangerous for ships to be on, because it can't deliver as much ordinance.

Similar problems occur with sensor clusters and guidance centres.

Pyre leFay wrote:
Imagine our own craft to venture to mars It would likely look a cross between the ISS and Project Orion.


Both of which are roughly symmetrical, even though the ISS is a (relatively speaking) stationary object. Good work there. Roll

Pyre leFay wrote:
Likely end up similar to the aircraft carrier but inverted due to its environment.


No, it wouldn't, because the function and environment of a spaceship and an aircraft carrier are so fundamentally different that the comparison is in serious danger of being entirely invalid.

What you should take away from this is that asymmetric spaceships are stupid, ugly and logically unsound, and that arguing on behalf of them is equally so.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
#29 - 2011-11-14 16:48:00 UTC
Jodis Talvanen wrote:
asymetric design is caldari design

dont ruin the game

.. as is Amarr, Gallente and Minmatar design? Better state EVE is asymmetrical design. And it still doesn't make any sense and it's ugly.

And no, aircraft cariers aren't pretty either.
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#30 - 2011-11-14 17:28:21 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
5. Aesthetic sensibility! For heaven's sake, asymmetrical ships are UGLY!



The best reason in my opinion is #5 , not to discredit the other ones listed mind you.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2011-11-14 17:33:19 UTC
Krell Kroenen wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
5. Aesthetic sensibility! For heaven's sake, asymmetrical ships are UGLY!



The best reason in my opinion is #5 , not to discredit the other ones listed mind you.


I will admit that since the spaceships in EVE don't follow any kind of relation to physical reality (a sad thing, in my opinion, but not one that's likely to change any time soon), reason #5 is the only one that really counts.

But oh boy, does it count.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Mal Darkrunner
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-11-14 20:26:35 UTC
What has realism got to do with the shape of an imaginary vessel in a game about internet spaceships?

If you're pushing that argument then I'm going to argue that all ships should look like this

The trip from Jita to Amarr is going to take significantly longer...

Lets leave the realism where it belongs and keep EVE's iconic asymmetric designs (like the Raven, Blackbird, Omen, Catalyst, etc.) as they are!
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2011-11-14 21:56:14 UTC
Raven? Phhhh... The Raven is okay.

Talk about Moa, "a flying pile of trash with something sticking out".
Sirius Cassiopeiae
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2011-11-14 22:30:34 UTC
Moa... LOL
thats the ugliest ship i ever saw...
i cant even imagine uglier one...
Caiman Graystock
Starways Congress
#35 - 2011-11-14 22:37:57 UTC
Whatever happens, finished or not, this ship is looking sexeh as hell;

New Raven Model and Skin
Velarra
#36 - 2011-11-15 00:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Velarra
Caiman Graystock wrote:
Whatever happens, finished or not, this ship is looking sexeh as hell;

New Raven Model and Skin


To be fair, the Raven IS looking better. Particularly the small adjustment to the cockpit/bridge/frontal head and its supportive new rear structure. The ship's head looks less like a chicken in a desperate search for a close encounter with an axe. The engines at the rear too, seem quite pleasant.

If anything all of these new subtle changes amplify the out-of-place, lopsided awkwardness of the smaller of the two wings. If the small wing on the left when viewed from the rear, was scaled somewhat larger relative to the other side, by length, width & depth it might actually work.

Ideally just a little smaller than the right side's length and width, keeping in theme with original asymmetric hull design yet finding a bit more balance of scale / weighting.
Jiji Hamin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2011-11-15 01:24:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jiji Hamin
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Spaceships are built symmetrical for a goddamn reason, CCP.


What would that reason be? Space friction? Distribution of mass in a weightless environment?


not to mention that asymmetric ships are sexy.
Velarra
#38 - 2011-11-15 01:51:02 UTC
Jiji Hamin wrote:
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Spaceships are built symmetrical for a goddamn reason, CCP.


What would that reason be? Space friction? Distribution of mass in a weightless environment?


not to mention that asymmetric ships are sexy.


In many respects this can be due to humans being proportionately asymmetric. We're all a little taller, shorter etc.. on one side vs. the other. For the most part it is subtle, we can casually choose to only wear size 10's on our left and right sides etc. It's familiar and strikes a chord when we view it. Ideally, the aptly balanced asymmetric machine becomes less precise and somehow that much more organic on first viewing.

On the other hand a perfectly symmetrical human enters the territory of creepy. The uncanny valley. Not unlike a robot somehow. Simultaneously extreme asymmetry has its unsettling qualities when viewed generally due to it being particularly inhuman.

The trick is finding balance and more precisely, a comfortable ratio. One side slightly greater than the other in relative size mimicking the asymmetry of nature/biology yet not overwhelmingly so.
Logan LaMort
Screaming Hayabusa
#39 - 2011-11-15 02:04:35 UTC
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

You can argue about the physics, technology and culture of a fictional universe set a few tens of thousands of years in the future in an internet spaceship game, to try and justify your point of view, but all it comes down to are these two arguments:

I think the ship looks beautiful, I think the ship looks ugly. Debate it all you want, you're not going to change each other's perspectives.

This is why about half the ships in EVE are asymmetrical and the other half symmetrical (Give or take but it really is pretty evenly split), because we all have different tastes but at least we should hopefully be able to find a good amount of ships we really like.

So you don't like the Ravan because it's asymmetrical? Then go for the Dominix, Hyperion, Maelstrom, Scorpion, armageddon, Apocalypse or Abaddon, they have symmetry.

Personally I love the new Raven and I intend to train for it one day, but I seem to be rarity as I love both symmetric and asymmetric design.
Velarra
#40 - 2011-11-15 02:15:09 UTC
Logan LaMort wrote:
So you don't like the Ravan because it's asymmetrical?


It's not so much a matter of being wholly for or against asymmetry or symmetry - yet both if they exist in excess to the point where the over all balance of the subject/ship is acutely skewed.
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