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possible way to balance minmatar
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Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2011-11-14 19:42:10 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Phill C wrote:

you must be a liberal... that looks like their kind of tactic.. ya know take it out of context try and twist the meaning.


What exactly was the context? I think the original meaning was preserved rather well.

Phill C wrote:

my point.. Galente Buffs are coming. (alote of people are trying to compare blaster boats to min (idk why)
They will have an affect yet undertermend but IT does look promising.


I guess i'll just take your word for it then! Looks promising? I've been on sisi and it didn't look particularly promising there just yet. I assume CCP is still rolling around ideas for how to get hybrids up to par. They've released incremental and small changes thus far and none of them have really changed the paradigm, just made fitting hybrid ships less of a chore to fit and raised their damage and tracking from utterly laughable to a little less laughable given their other drawbacks.

Phill C wrote:

my second point. is that his reference to eve kill is useless with out frame of reference.


You did a magnificent job of conveying that message. I don't know how anyone could mis-contrue your fine-tuned prose as belligerent trolling.

To be fair, he has a point.
This point:
Phill C wrote:

(idk why)


He is absolutely correct when he says that he has no clue what he is talking about.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Phill C
Death Runs Riot
Out of the Blue.
#82 - 2011-11-14 20:00:31 UTC
fail troll is fail.

the real question here is what are you expecting out of blaster boats?
as its already been proven by previous posters in this thread that the guns are on par.

you dont want to hear anything other than a scheme by witch to nerf ether min or amarr (you maid that clear)
but that is just bad game design you dont nerf bat crap just cause its counter part is unfavored. thats why galente
is crap now. because of 2 nerfs that hit it where it hurts the most... ill let you guess what those are. Nimrod.

Nerfs break game content.

Jacob Holland wrote:
ElCholo wrote:
Largest in Class:

800mm Repeating Artillery II______Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Duration------------------7.85________Duration---------------7.85
Optimal-----------------4,800________Optimal---------------7,200
Falloff------------------19,200________Falloff---------------10,000
Damage Mod----------3.234________Damage Mod----------4.2
Tracking---------------0.0432________Tracking------------0.0433
Signature-----------------400________Signature---------------400


{Snip}
This looks to me that they both have the same duration. The optimal of the of the Blasters is almost double which means that while still in optimal the blaster is doing full damage and the AC is having to fight in falloff which means significantly reduce damage. The Blaster has nearly double optimal and the AC has nearly double Falloff. People seems to keep forgetting that even though the DPS may be similar, that the ACs are fighting in falloff which means you can probably cut that actuall DPS in half. The damage mod on the blasters is greater than that on the ACs. Tracking is just a TAD bit better on the ACs which will be getting even better on them in the expansion. Sig is the same.
{Snip}

Unmodified by skills the ACs need to use approximately 12.5% of their available falloff to hit a target at the edge of Blaster Optimal. The significant reduction in damage you refer to is approximately 1%

That's right, one whole percent.

Now admittedly, all other factors being equal that one percent will mean that the AC equipped ship would die before the Blaster fit ship... But the difference is minimal.

Out at Scram range the Blasters are using approximately 18% of their falloff and losing approximately 4% of their damage while the ACs are using 21%... And losing about 4% of their performance...


The significant differences between fighting in Blaster optimal and fighting in Falloff are often overplayed. Even at half falloff the loss of DPS is actually less than 20%.

The improvements I've seen to hybrids so far seem rather lacklustre, though I am well aware that the knife edge of EVE combat is often upset by tiny percentages and it's essential that the hybrid rebalance is approached carefully for that reason.



most sense maid in here yet combo power elcholo and Jacob.
you stated that the changes to hybrids have been small and haven't added up... erm i think its all starting to add up... CCP makes games for a living.. you beg your mom for change.. But both you and CCP know what you are doing.. they know games and you know TOLLING FORUM THREADS.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2011-11-14 20:28:36 UTC
Phill C wrote:
fail troll is fail.

the real question here is what are you expecting out of blaster boats?
as its already been proven by previous posters in this thread that the guns are on par.

you dont want to hear anything other than a scheme by witch to nerf ether min or amarr (you maid that clear)
but that is just bad game design you dont nerf bat crap just cause its counter part is unfavored. thats why galente
is crap now. because of 2 nerfs that hit it where it hurts the most... ill let you guess what those are. Nimrod.

Nerfs break game content.

Jacob Holland wrote:
ElCholo wrote:
Largest in Class:

800mm Repeating Artillery II______Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Duration------------------7.85________Duration---------------7.85
Optimal-----------------4,800________Optimal---------------7,200
Falloff------------------19,200________Falloff---------------10,000
Damage Mod----------3.234________Damage Mod----------4.2
Tracking---------------0.0432________Tracking------------0.0433
Signature-----------------400________Signature---------------400


{Snip}
This looks to me that they both have the same duration. The optimal of the of the Blasters is almost double which means that while still in optimal the blaster is doing full damage and the AC is having to fight in falloff which means significantly reduce damage. The Blaster has nearly double optimal and the AC has nearly double Falloff. People seems to keep forgetting that even though the DPS may be similar, that the ACs are fighting in falloff which means you can probably cut that actuall DPS in half. The damage mod on the blasters is greater than that on the ACs. Tracking is just a TAD bit better on the ACs which will be getting even better on them in the expansion. Sig is the same.
{Snip}

Unmodified by skills the ACs need to use approximately 12.5% of their available falloff to hit a target at the edge of Blaster Optimal. The significant reduction in damage you refer to is approximately 1%

That's right, one whole percent.

Now admittedly, all other factors being equal that one percent will mean that the AC equipped ship would die before the Blaster fit ship... But the difference is minimal.

Out at Scram range the Blasters are using approximately 18% of their falloff and losing approximately 4% of their damage while the ACs are using 21%... And losing about 4% of their performance...


The significant differences between fighting in Blaster optimal and fighting in Falloff are often overplayed. Even at half falloff the loss of DPS is actually less than 20%.

The improvements I've seen to hybrids so far seem rather lacklustre, though I am well aware that the knife edge of EVE combat is often upset by tiny percentages and it's essential that the hybrid rebalance is approached carefully for that reason.



most sense maid in here yet combo power elcholo and Jacob.
you stated that the changes to hybrids have been small and haven't added up... erm i think its all starting to add up... CCP makes games for a living.. you beg your mom for change.. But both you and CCP know what you are doing.. they know games and you know TOLLING FORUM THREADS.

It´s not proven that the guns are on par, it´s proven that there are some leet EFT-warriors talking about things they have no idea about. Learn PVP and then we can talk, until then don´t be too sad when the adults don´t take you seriously.

And with PVP i am not talking about: "i have ganked lone indys in gatecamps, and because i´m not accidentally myself i´m so awesome." or "the FC tells me what ship, which skills, which fitting, where to fly, when and who to shoot and because i can do obey without screwing up i´m so awesome."

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2011-11-14 22:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Phill C wrote:
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Phill C wrote:
on sisi i watched a catalyst rip a t2 cruiser hull in half

as for minmatar ships being in the top 20 on the eve kill board. suck it..


Flawless logical argument. You totally demolished them Phil.



you must be a liberal... that looks like their kind of tactic.. ya know take it out of context try and twist the meaning.

my point.. Galente Buffs are coming. (alote of people are trying to compare blaster boats to min (idk why)
They will have an affect yet undertermend but IT does look promising.

my second point. is that his reference to eve kill is useless with out frame of reference.




I fail to see why comparing Gallente to Matar is hard. They are both supposed to be scirmishing brawlers, a a roll wone excels at and the other ...well it doesn't.

I'd be surprised if the buff go far enough. Blaster damage projection is still terrible, and the if the ships use their bonuses they are still going to be to slow due to the speed penalties of armor rigs.

They are talking 20% (which helps larges immesely) fittings which is also pretty huge, and cap somsumption (yay no more capping out a hype with the guns overloaded and a couple hardeners on)

All good things.

Root of the issue remains that unless you shield fit which means only Myrm and Domi gets a cap booster, they are still going to be to slow for their bonuses which doesn't jive with the lack of damage projection

Battlecriusers with still be scarce because you still can't roll primary to primary unless your fleet is 10km apart (because that always happens) so you are still going to be last to arrive on EVERY target so the amount of damage that you are going to do is still going to be inferior to the guy with the cane/harbi/AC myrm that essentially has to click in the general direction and fire on the guns.

The only way I can think of to make Gallente at all desirable is to crank the base speeds about 15% to make up for shield rigging penalties and either knock down Matari falloff or crank the hell out of blaster damage, and I mean 20-25%.

This way you have the option of shield fitting loosing any form of cap protection, being screaming fast, with a crap tank and big damage. Or fitting for balance possibly even active and being able to tank (somewhat) at the expense of speed and DPS.

As it stands you can expect to do 30%-40% of paper DPS due to travel time and falloff losses, made worse by the native armor tanks that don't allow 5 damage mods, and comparatively poor damage project related to both hull speed and weapon system.

Rails would at least be effective IF they could track worth a damn, and if you add enough modules to get the tracking into a reasonable range, the buff they are getting still only amounts so 2/5s of a single magstab, you run out of slots, so damage is distinctly sub-par.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2011-11-15 01:05:14 UTC
This reminds me of frost mage vs ms warrior discussions back in '05 or so, just with more math and less video representation.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#86 - 2011-11-15 01:28:51 UTC
Having only used irregular warfare (Guerilla warfare (solo and small gang pvp)) and primarily with Minmatar. I can tell you that Gallente do not skirmish (atleast well). They do preform raiding (Vikings) tactics well. They come in, cause as much damage as possible and get out (getting out is somewhat difficult above frigates). The most common form of engagement in eve is conventional warfare. Amarr excell @ this and to a lesser extent Caldari (although Caldari can also skirmish). Most armour ships in this game are built for conventional warfare or atleast have filled that role, because they're not able to fill any other. Minmatar (Muslim/east asian) best represent skirmishing, but Amarr are also as capable. If there was no Minmatar for this role then Amarr would fill it (Amarr are the second best skirmishing race in-game).
javascript:__doPostBack('forum$ctl00$PostReply','')
So, there are infarct only 2 races that for years have filled the main types of warfare in pvp. Amarr and Minmatar. Gallente only do raiding well on the frigate level, because of low hit points and high damage output. So any primes that Gallente skirmish is false (or skirmish well or are suppose to).

(I'm going to stop using "small gang" because every loser in game believe they do now. Skirmishing, raiding and general guerilla tactics is what I do.)
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2011-11-15 01:47:40 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Phill C wrote:
Ruah Piskonit wrote:

Oh this sounds like what i was saying. . .

its an easy fix - Mini get their dps cut, keep their kiting range, speed, versatility and arti alpha (which is super cool feature btw - the radically different nature of AC/Arti. . .). And believe me, it will still be a great fight. It will take a little more skill and a lot more time to kill your enemy, but he still can't catch you or track you or both.

I know a lot of people disagree with this, but its really quite obvious in the game how big it is.

And don't compare ship examples - like Sebastian said - it will take effort to find the exceptions.


F U,
Also its mostly CCP's fault for nerfing the crap out of speed back in the day. before the nano Nerf it wasn't like this. Minmatar guns are ON PAR with all other racial guns. For the most part blasters cant do thier job to be viable (its an issue with thier ships being SLOW or sumthing idk... ) BUT I THINK THATS GETTING FIXED READ A DEVBLOG YOU UNSAVORY NUCKLE HEADS.


so.. can we call this a end to yet another "PLEASE NERF THAT IT MAKES ME CRY AT NIGHT" thread


weapons maybe balanced but the hulls arent , matar hulls are way too good , nerf them ,nerf them hard



2 possible nerfs to matari hulls:

1 - axe falloff bonuses by half
2 - make blaster ships faster

do both and balance is achieved.


So, return Minmatar back to the point where nobody played them... and everyone laughed at them in pvp. That's a great idea. Roll
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2011-11-15 01:53:43 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

It´s not proven that the guns are on par, it´s proven that there are some leet EFT-warriors talking about things they have no idea about. Learn PVP and then we can talk, until then don´t be too sad when the adults don´t take you seriously.

And with PVP i am not talking about: "i have ganked lone indys in gatecamps, and because i´m not accidentally myself i´m so awesome." or "the FC tells me what ship, which skills, which fitting, where to fly, when and who to shoot and because i can do obey without screwing up i´m so awesome."


Come back when you have a combat record on any killboard or post with a main and quit hiding like a chicken **** behind an alt. Until then, anything you say is trollololol.
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#89 - 2011-11-15 02:58:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruah Piskonit
Grimpak wrote:

2 possible nerfs to matari hulls:

1 - axe falloff bonuses by half
2 - make blaster ships faster

do both and balance is achieved.


possibly add -

TE reduction to 15% falloff
dps nurf of 3%

blaster ships should not be the fastest - they should have the best agility.

But I agree.

ElCholo wrote:

So, return Minmatar back to the point where nobody played them... and everyone laughed at them in pvp. That's a great idea. Roll


I played them. . .and rather well too. It was harder - but I always had combat options to run or fight.

you prefer the current situation where everyone plays mini?
A'Brantox Foson
A'Brantox Foson Corporation
#90 - 2011-11-15 04:20:51 UTC
minmatar is fine, validity given to this argument is not.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2011-11-15 07:43:08 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

It´s not proven that the guns are on par, it´s proven that there are some leet EFT-warriors talking about things they have no idea about. Learn PVP and then we can talk, until then don´t be too sad when the adults don´t take you seriously.

And with PVP i am not talking about: "i have ganked lone indys in gatecamps, and because i´m not accidentally myself i´m so awesome." or "the FC tells me what ship, which skills, which fitting, where to fly, when and who to shoot and because i can do obey without screwing up i´m so awesome."


Come back when you have a combat record on any killboard or post with a main and quit hiding like a chicken **** behind an alt. Until then, anything you say is trollololol.

This is my main and it is not my first toon, my other accounts got unsubbed and the chars biomassed this summer. I do have extensive PvP experience.
Unsurprisingly, you are wrong with your assumptions -again.

And by simply placing the numbers of blasters and ACs next to each other and claiming equality, you have yourself practically defined as EFT-warrior. Deskjockey without any real experience.

You are lucky if you are doing 30% paper dps with blasters, nothing you can do about it unless your opponent screws up or is sitting in a Mac.
If you are doing less than 80% paper dps with ACs you are doing it wrong. Learn flying again.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2011-11-15 08:33:39 UTC
Ruah Piskonit wrote:


I played them. . .and rather well too. It was harder - but I always had combat options to run or fight.

you prefer the current situation where everyone plays mini?


I actually don't, but I also think that you see more people in Angel ships than in Minmatar ships. I think that so many people hype it up that more people fly them than anything else. This leads to more kills and losses of Minmatar ships which of course skews the killboards.

I would like to see a list of the most loss ships to see if they are also all Minmatar.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2011-11-15 08:36:12 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

This is my main and it is not my first toon, my other accounts got unsubbed and the chars biomassed this summer. I do have extensive PvP experience.
Unsurprisingly, you are wrong with your assumptions -again.

And by simply placing the numbers of blasters and ACs next to each other and claiming equality, you have yourself practically defined as EFT-warrior. Deskjockey without any real experience.

You are lucky if you are doing 30% paper dps with blasters, nothing you can do about it unless your opponent screws up or is sitting in a Mac.
If you are doing less than 80% paper dps with ACs you are doing it wrong. Learn flying again.


All I have to say to this is bullsh1t. It's very easy to say you have plenty of pvp experience when you have no way to back it up, isn't it? Anything you say now will be ignored by pretty much everyone here, I can guarantee that. The only exception may be those nermatar fanbois like yourself.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2011-11-15 09:03:06 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

This is my main and it is not my first toon, my other accounts got unsubbed and the chars biomassed this summer. I do have extensive PvP experience.
Unsurprisingly, you are wrong with your assumptions -again.

And by simply placing the numbers of blasters and ACs next to each other and claiming equality, you have yourself practically defined as EFT-warrior. Deskjockey without any real experience.

You are lucky if you are doing 30% paper dps with blasters, nothing you can do about it unless your opponent screws up or is sitting in a Mac.
If you are doing less than 80% paper dps with ACs you are doing it wrong. Learn flying again.


All I have to say to this is bullsh1t. It's very easy to say you have plenty of pvp experience when you have no way to back it up, isn't it? Anything you say now will be ignored by pretty much everyone here, I can guarantee that. The only exception may be those nermatar fanbois like yourself.


I can confirm that everybody who posted here have more pvp experience than you.
This is my main btw.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2011-11-15 09:13:57 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

This is my main and it is not my first toon, my other accounts got unsubbed and the chars biomassed this summer. I do have extensive PvP experience.
Unsurprisingly, you are wrong with your assumptions -again.

And by simply placing the numbers of blasters and ACs next to each other and claiming equality, you have yourself practically defined as EFT-warrior. Deskjockey without any real experience.

You are lucky if you are doing 30% paper dps with blasters, nothing you can do about it unless your opponent screws up or is sitting in a Mac.
If you are doing less than 80% paper dps with ACs you are doing it wrong. Learn flying again.


All I have to say to this is bullsh1t. It's very easy to say you have plenty of pvp experience when you have no way to back it up, isn't it? Anything you say now will be ignored by pretty much everyone here, I can guarantee that. The only exception may be those nermatar fanbois like yourself.

Well, i can back it up by making sense in my posts. As much as you can back up your cluelessness by your posts.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2011-11-15 10:35:18 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

Well, i can back it up by making sense in my posts. As much as you can back up your cluelessness by your posts.


Wrong.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2011-11-15 10:50:54 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

Well, i can back it up by making sense in my posts. As much as you can back up your cluelessness by your posts.


Wrong.

Weren´t you giving out guaranties that i would be ignored by everyone except nerfmatar fanbois?
And here you are not ignoring me.

So: are you nerfmatar fanboi or actually really into constantly proving yourself wrong?

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2011-11-15 11:36:19 UTC
ElCholo wrote:

So, return Minmatar back to the point where nobody played them... and everyone laughed at them in pvp. That's a great idea. Roll

if you have a way to boost blaster ships that doesn't make them into a poor version of AC ships, then go ahead and say it. this issue has been debated to death. Otherwise CCP is free to delete the entire hybrid weapon lineup and skills and make gallente ships focus solely on drones and caldari on missiles, because there are only these 3 options to fix blasters.

Ruah Piskonit wrote:

possibly add -

TE reduction to 15% falloff
dps nurf of 3%


I woudn't even touch on TE's and damage mods of the AC's. they already do ok damage for the range they get (as long as it is in a non-falloff bonused hull).

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2011-11-15 12:19:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
If you are doing less than 80% paper dps with ACs you are doing it wrong. Learn flying again.


80% with 2x TEs on a Cane is around 12km away, i.e. within or very close to web/scram range.
Phill C
Death Runs Riot
Out of the Blue.
#100 - 2011-11-15 15:18:45 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
ElCholo wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

Well, i can back it up by making sense in my posts. As much as you can back up your cluelessness by your posts.


Wrong.

Weren´t you giving out guaranties that i would be ignored by everyone except nerfmatar fanbois?
And here you are not ignoring me.

So: are you nerfmatar fanboi or actually really into constantly proving yourself wrong?


^^ ID10T ERROR DETECTED...

Also you are ******* ********.

people blasters ARE NOT projectiles.

its not the guns ITS THE HULLS.
-ether they need a better availability to shield take.(so they can dictate rage better)
-or they need to have a bonus that reduces the penalties of putting on crap ton of plate.
-or i have a few other half assed ideas

Mostly getting the hulls to where they can get in range faster and last out long nuff for dps to be applyed.

but they are not matari hulls so they wont be as fast. and they still are NOT projectiles guns so they wont reach as far.(also not lazors GUESS WHAT THEY WONT REACH AS FAR)


also elcholo im posting from an alt what about it?