Crime & Punishment

L2Read. That you cannot grasp my answer is not my concern. Nor am I under any obligation to you whatsoever.

They should be.

The problem isn't that stupid people are being punished for being stupid, but that the punishing party
a.) currently invests to little into the act of punishment, specifically looses to little if they try to punish the wrong person. This makes it frustrating to actively combat them and encourages avoidance, which works but isn't really exiting gamplay.
b.) is relatively free of reprecussions due to anonymity of mains etc., however due to the way alt accounts work in EvE, there's not much that can be done to combat this. It still should be kept in mind as a point in favor of the attackers when difficulty and cost of ganking are discussed.
c..) has the entire initiative in the issue, as active defensive measures are rarely able to stop a gank.

Seeing as the main toon has it's game play paid for by the ganking then, yes, that is relevant.

Point A: As has already been stated, the financial loss to the ganker is insignificant. The best a potential victim can hope to do is survive a gank, leaving him at no loss and the ganker at an insignificant loss. On the other hand a successful gank results in a massiv loss to the victim and an insignificant loss to the ganker. There is no way the scenario can play out that has the ganker at a signifcant loss, no matter what the defender does. In my opinion, this risk distribution is flawed, and encourages avoiding conflicts with gankers instead of trying to actively combat them. It is simply frustrating to explain to a new player that the best they can hope to do is come out even, unless they are willing to engage in infiltration shennigans (which often requires a certain amount of stupidity on the gankers part; creating an anonymous alt corp and then letting it be infiltrated isn't exactly smart gameplay).

Point B: below

Point C: Unless the defender is sitting right at the target, the probability to lock, get in range and jam is pretty bad. Expecting a 1:1 ratio of defenders to protected is inefficient. Also, this isn't about "any gank attempt by a group of any size", but specifically about gank attempts that use < 25% of the victims loss in shipvalue, have basically succeeded by the time they land on grid and do not allow the reaction time for active defenses.



It is, if you want to be active about fighting him. If you attack the ganking alt, you wont be able to cause enough damage to stop him from continuing his endeavours. If you could attack his missioning alt / PI base / whatever, you could cause him enough financial harm to prevent him from continuing to gank.

Playing intentionally stupid is rude.

i see you've still not provided an answer to my question.
a shame, i thought you might actually have a reasonable answer. hell, at this point even an unreasonable one would be a vast improvement to you just being rude and ignoring the question.

Gankers assembling a group sufficient to attack a freighter are fine with me, they went through enough trouble to justify their success.

Gankers using 4+ destroyers use enough ISK to justify their target going down in flames, while they still case more damage than they suffer (ISK wise), the ratio isn't scewed that badly and each target that manages to survive hurts.

1-2 destroyers ganking a weak industrial target does -in my opinion- not constitute enough "effort" in planing and execution to justify an efficiency increase (ISK used vs dmg caused wise) by 400%.



Yes, there is. I have no clue who his missioning alt is. I'd happily trade killrights for informations about the attackers past trades so I can identify his supply lines and try to attack them (note that I'm not asking for killrights on those supply lines; acquiring those, stepping over the law myself or hiring mercs to do my dirty work is my own problem). If it's not himself but his buddies or a benevolent third party, they end up being the target instead. If data is misunderstood and an uninvolved party is mistakenly suspected to be the supporting group - well, it's a cruel universe, right?

Yes, I'm aware that the attempt to get to the target in this way are likely to be unsuccessful; but it's a way to motivate people to fight back, and the resulting conflict can be educating and entertaining even if the attacked corp doesn't manage to hurt the aggressor in the end.



I kinda get the impression you willfully misunderstand me. I'm fine with ganks happening; I'm not happy about the best way to combat gankers being simply being in a different system. I'd prefer a system that put gankers into a position where they themselves were in danger of loosing significant amounts of ISK, either directly by forcing them to field enough ships (or blingy enough ships) that failing a gank becomes painful, or indirectly by opening other alts they use to support their ganking habits to retribution. I'd also like to see a system that allowed for active defense, as I believe it could encourage industrial corps to recruit a military wing. I like the idea that some of the newbs in one of the typical beginner corps might be encouraged to take up arms and join the next corp mining operations with pvp ships to defend their corps fleet.

but it's not just 1-2 destroyers. it's those destroyers, the alts to scan the industrials, the hauler to scoop the loot without himself being ganked (without the safety net of concord to help them) etc.
you're clearly not looking at the whole picture.


so you just want kill rights on any one you please because they've had a vague association with some one else. sounds fair. that's like sending legitimate shop owners to prison if some one uses their product to commit a crime. it makes no sense. either way there's nothing to stop you doing it anyway. if you don't want to put the effort in to finding out where the cash is coming from then you don't deserve the ability to shut it down.


that is already the case; ganking revolves around bringing lots of ships, or fewer bigger ships already. they are in direct danger; they can be shot at without being concorded once they have aggressed you.
the reason military wings of industrial corps don't exist is because most people aren't dumb enough to make themselves targets of ganks because cheaper and easier not to be a victim to begin with. again; just because you don't like or use the tools available to you in order to avoid a gank doesn't stop them from existing.

The picture I'm looking at is that currently a corp of three anonymous alts can extort an industrial corp ten times its size by simply stating:

"We will gank all your members unless you pay up".
"Each time we hurt you it will cost you 30million +"
"Each time you hurt us by successfully defending it will cost us 2 million isk"
"You can't outlast us because we can just mission two hours and make enough money for 50 more ships"

Those gankers do not rely upon haulers or industrials to make a profit, they rely simply on their anonymity and the low investment they have to make to cause significantly more damage. And I really fail to see how infiltrating an anonymous three man extortion corp is supposed to succeed.




Re-read the highlighted part. I'm specifically not asking for killrights. I'm not looking to send a legitimate shop owner into prison, I want to identify the shady dealer that supplies my opponents at suspicioulsy low costs and then have a "friendly discussion" with him, which I have to organize completely on my own, without relying on concord or anyone else.

As for finding out where the cash comes from - there's no game mechanism for this. Expecting people to lie and infiltrate the corps of others, in order to defend against a mode of attack that requires low effort is ridiculous.

My very first statement to you was that the base assumption of your question is wrong, which basically constitutes an answer. There is no reason that the stupid shouldn't be punished. A question in return:

Why should gankers that just aim to cause maximum damage (without bothering with the logistics of retreiving loot to acutally make direct profit from ganking, which I'm fine with) have the ability to do so at efficiency rates > 400% while personally risking neither significant valueables nor retribution to the chars that allow them to finance their ganking?