Player Features and Ideas Discussion

We're in danger of veering off-topic here, but I'll just say that the cerb's ability to hit beyond 25km is only useful if you're in a fleet that has a long range point or fast tackler since 25km is beyond (normal) point range.

We were discussing gank fits in particular, which to my mind implies being near one's target.

Yes, the new T2s are faster than equivalent T3s. If the devs could have made them out-damage and out-tank the T3s I am sure they would have done, but that would have broken everything else....

...which kind of brings me back to my point, which is that the T3's ability to out damage and out tank every possible counterpart *while at the same time* having special EWAR bonuses is out of balance.

I am not sure why tengus don't appear in fleet fights so often these days - perhaps it's on grounds of cost. Perhaps the emergence of the sentry domi has reduced their fleet effectiveness. Maybe the large alliances just got tired of footing the bill - who knows?

Nevertheless, in WH pvp you really have no other choice. Lack of choice is bad for the game because it makes pvp a less rich and interesting experience. I really want to use the T2s in skirmishes, particularly in wormholes. wormhole pvp is some of the best there is - everyone has limited resources and there are no cyno-lolganks to spoil everyone's fun.

Let's make it better.

I posted an example fit that has 6 launchers, shield extender, target painter, 2 damage application rigs and 175% of the EHP of an equivalent T2. It has a grid mod and a grid rig... and still outperforms the cerberus easily.

If I was going to bring a shield cruiser to a gank, this is what I'd optimally bring (I might actually dump the target painter for another invulnerability field if I know someone else is bringing a web).

Granted, but we all don't live in wormholes are aren't attacking off of probe ins.


You have a totally different environment than 90% (at least) of the playerbase.

Not really, what null fleets usually use t3s for are recon roles, a lach or huggin can't tank 100 dps ships hitting it at once.

A Loki or Proteus can.

In small gangs in k space this is relatively rare because they get primaried for km value, so while you see them they are relatively rare because they are easily blobbed with battle cruisers.

Chasing them off doesn't cost you anything, and lach and arazu can point or web further for a third of the price.

I'm pve who cares, there are faster ways to make money

This surely is an example of a T3 making a T2 obsolete.



To be fair, any dual XL-ASB fit is verging on overpowered nonsense but this is the fault of the ridiculous decision to allow more than 1 ASB module on a ship - taking the module well beyond its designed function, which was to be an emergency top-up for shield skirmishers. That's another issue.

The one feature about this fit is that under sustained fire it will eventually run out of cap boosters so it can at least in theory be defeated by a ship that is unable to break its tank with raw dps. It's not quite as OP as the ridiculous 3000dps perma-tank tengu.

With respect, this is a single application out of a very long list in which a T3 is more suitable than a T2 for a given function, which is why the OP thinks that T3 ships need rebalancing - and why I agree with him.

The huge tanks are the biggest culprits here, as you have alluded to.

I think we can accept huge damage with a light tank, or a huge tank with no damage (although the huge-tank-cyno-bait is a problem IMHO). I think we can accept multi-role that is a little worse than the dedicated T2.

In short, lower bonuses, subsystems that buff abilities at the expense of nerfing others and the ability to reconfigure on the hoof would, in my view, make T3s more balanced, less OP and arguably more desirable for forward recon-style roles such as exploration, scouting, wormholes etc.

Hisec use does not really need to be factored in here since in hisec we can just choose the best tool for a given job with ease, being only maximum 1 jump from a friendly station at all times.

Hope you can fly different race HACs to see how good they became, in fact there's nothing you can do with a T3 you can't do with a good HAC fit now, they got a really very nice capacitor boost, fast, tanky and if we start talking about pain well, they deliver it by truck loads.

Edit: derp, you cant nullify and warp cloak with your Hac but whatever, not much of an issue now.

In short what you are proposing for T3's is to do Cover Op frigate job for about 600% price tag increase without pimp.

Useless.

At all or maybe for a short moment the time people set their things straight and fleet/counter fleet support wings etc, once it's done, no way in hell your T3 does better dps at HAC role than HAC can do, T3 will have the advantage of buffer but again, HACs can eat them alive in same number fights, just wait and see next months where T3 fleets are going:

-Tengus one already dead for about 6 months or used in very little engagements typs against smaller entities just for lols
-Lokis one for now is used, wait to see sentry ishtars counter set up and see those lokis and their crappy dps pop like popcorn
-Lol Legions are used to boost mainly armor HACs and Domi fleets as Proteus for heavy tackle

So I have to disagree with you and tell you, every single nerf it will be put on those T3 ships aside command sub will make them less and less interesting than they will already be in a couple months. I can't say I don't care because I can fly them all, I will just regret I trained for them all when I could have spent more time training new characters for sale on toons bazaar, training trading skills and flying T1 ships.



Why? -seems you found new reccon roles with T3's the already very good reccons we have can't do, tell us more about it.



Useless sub or gimmick one, 2x used in AT which is far from being an example of Eve pvp environment and the only way for those to survive was because they had several large remote energy transfers on them so they could run permanently run their xl-ASB or whatever the heck tank they had.
Outside AT the only place where you might see any of these is probably in high sec but, again it's not an example of eve pvp environment neither.

Better at T2 role than T3's?

-logistics hands down

-reccon hands down

-interdiction hands down

-DPS not really hands down but at least half of them yes. (Cerberus Deimos Ishtar Zealot and the outsider Eagle)

Travel cloak nullified: nope T2 can't do this but it's maybe a T3 special ability that actually makes it T3, I don't know, maybe heh

Outside of sabre camping how many solo engagements do you really think happen?

Metas and markets have catch up before these start appearing in null really.