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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

First post
Author
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#441 - 2011-11-14 17:38:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Phantomania
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Phantomania wrote:

Nice for you, I'm sure you'll have a nice new Ship Model that you can make use of!

I guess I'll have to stick with my Tengu which costs $$$$


Once again, Thx CCP!


Twisted



DRAKE.
TENGU
GOLEM
RAVEN
ROOK
SCORPION
WIDOW
HAWK
HOOKBILL
GILA
CARACAL
CERB

Get over yourself.

Dedicated hybrid ships:

Rokh
Moa
Eagle

A torp Naga is WORTHLESS. It can't do anything in PvP and would be stupid in PvE. Christ have you even tried flying one?



Hybrid Ships w/ Hybrid bonus:

Rokh
Vulture
Ferox
Eagle
Falcon
Moa
Cormorant
Harpy
Raptor
Bantam
Merlin
Daredevil
Vigilant
Vindicator

+ Most Gallente Ships


could have had cruise missiles, Talos gets drones!!!
Face612
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#442 - 2011-11-14 17:40:06 UTC
This just makes the Naga a Rokh with a far less favorable tank.
Rokh: 10% to hybrid range 5% to shield resists.
Naga: 10% to hybrid range 5% to hybrid damage.

With the prices bound to be similar between them and the speed of the Naga not being it's selling point, what benefit is there to having the Naga over the Rohk? If the Naga could be used as a high speed blaster or torp boat it would give it an applicable role, smash and grab assault. Wit this ballancing the Naga does no better in cap or BS warfare than the Rokh which can stay in the fight a lot longer due to it's tank, increased PG and similar price/skills. IMHO, the Naga is out of place with this bonus set, simply making it a less favorable version of the tier three BS and no real individual role.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#443 - 2011-11-14 17:47:17 UTC
Face612 wrote:
This just makes the Naga a Rokh with a far less favorable tank.
Rokh: 10% to hybrid range 5% to shield resists.
Naga: 10% to hybrid range 5% to hybrid damage.

With the prices bound to be similar between them and the speed of the Naga not being it's selling point, what benefit is there to having the Naga over the Rohk? If the Naga could be used as a high speed blaster or torp boat it would give it an applicable role, smash and grab assault. Wit this ballancing the Naga does no better in cap or BS warfare than the Rokh which can stay in the fight a lot longer due to it's tank, increased PG and similar price/skills. IMHO, the Naga is out of place with this bonus set, simply making it a less favorable version of the tier three BS and no real individual role.


Rokh - 120 mill, very slow, poor agility
Naga - 50 mill, considerably faster and more agile, and 25% more damage than the Rokh.
Naga gets damage and mobility, Rokh gets EHP. That almost sounds balanced!

Being a high-speed assault boat is not the Naga's job, that's what the Talos is there for.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#444 - 2011-11-14 17:47:46 UTC
More turret DPS??? Shocked

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#445 - 2011-11-14 18:28:51 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Here is the latest update on these ships:

NAGA


  • Missile role removed, now focuses as a hybrid platform
  • 10% Torpedo velocity per level swapped for 5% to Large Hybrid Turret damage per level



This is good. The Naga makes sense as a rail platform now, there's a reason to use it. Previously, the damage bonus of the Talos meant that it was pretty easy to get the Talos to outdamage the Naga at what counts for long range these days. Of course, the former Tornado wiped the floor with them both, but now the falloff bonus reduction means that a rail Naga actually gets a damage advantage at a useful range, relative to the others. The arty Tornado gets alpha, selectable damage and no-cap-use, the tachyOracle gets instant ammo swaps and good tracking, the Naga finally gets good raw DPS.

Does the Talos still looks a bit weak, though, really? The drones help give it a damage advantage close up, but it's really a one-trick pony, and having to go inside tackle range to apply your blaster DPS isn't a particularly great trick. Especially when the Tornado is also still quite good at that trick.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#446 - 2011-11-14 18:35:06 UTC


Ignore my previous posts, just been on SiSi. The GFX and Space depth are awesome, I can live without the Naga ;P

Nice Job CCP! Blink
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#447 - 2011-11-14 18:46:44 UTC
Phantomania wrote:


Hybrid Ships w/ Hybrid bonus:

Rokh
Vulture
Ferox
Eagle
Falcon
Moa
Cormorant
Harpy
Raptor
Bantam
Merlin
Daredevil
Vigilant
Vindicator

+ Most Gallente Ships


could have had cruise missiles, Talos gets drones!!!


Bonuses thrown in for ***** & giggles don't count:


Vulture - command ship not rail DPS platform
Ferox - used as missile platform (split system)
Falcon - rails used for km whoring, not DPS... EW ship
Cormorant - lol
Harpy - more useful with blasters, Taranis can take it down.
Raptor - lol x 2 but I'll give you that
Bantam - wtf
Merlin - split
Daredevil - blaster bonused
Vigilant - blaster bonused
Vindi - blaster bonused


a cruise platform on the Naga? yeah, um...

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

BarryBonez
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#448 - 2011-11-14 18:49:50 UTC
so what was wrong with increasing the torpedo velocity to 20 or 30% per level?
oldmanst4r
oldmanst4r's Corporation
#449 - 2011-11-14 18:52:48 UTC
Amazing, with the 50% range and 25% damage boost, large blasters are nearly a viable weapons system.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#450 - 2011-11-14 18:54:44 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Phantomania wrote:


Hybrid Ships w/ Hybrid bonus:

Rokh
Vulture
Ferox
Eagle
Falcon
Moa
Cormorant
Harpy
Raptor
Bantam
Merlin
Daredevil
Vigilant
Vindicator

+ Most Gallente Ships


could have had cruise missiles, Talos gets drones!!!


Bonuses thrown in for ***** & giggles don't count:


Vulture - command ship not rail DPS platform
Ferox - used as missile platform (split system)
Falcon - rails used for km whoring, not DPS... EW ship
Cormorant - lol
Harpy - more useful with blasters, Taranis can take it down.
Raptor - lol x 2 but I'll give you that
Bantam - wtf
Merlin - split
Daredevil - blaster bonused
Vigilant - blaster bonused
Vindi - blaster bonused


a cruise platform on the Naga? yeah, um...



Previous Post- I don't care!

You can stick it far enough up your A** that it reaches your mouth and you can chew it for a couple of hours!!!!

Lol
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#451 - 2011-11-14 19:06:24 UTC
Why is this so hard...

Just make blasters far more similar to lasers than they currently are.

Give them more range, and similar DPS. Yes, it makes them less unique....

But anything else is simply broken/unfair/stupid/silly.

You are smart people.. why is this so hard?

Gameplay > silly background story

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#452 - 2011-11-14 19:18:12 UTC
Phantomania wrote:
Previous Post- I don't care!

You can stick it far enough up your A** that it reaches your mouth and you can chew it for a couple of hours!!!!

Lol



Shouldn't you be playing MW3 with the rest of the 13 year olds?

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Master Akira
Licence To Kill
Mercenary Coalition
#453 - 2011-11-14 19:43:22 UTC
So Naga was useless as torp platform because of range, and so it's best to completely remove the only missile platform from this line of ships than to balance around the torp/cruise range...

It's ok, I'll use it anyway if it's good enough so v0v

And lol at the mouth-foamers in here saying "BUT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE DRAKE LOLOLOL". Roll
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#454 - 2011-11-14 20:17:34 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Face612 wrote:
This just makes the Naga a Rokh with a far less favorable tank.
Rokh: 10% to hybrid range 5% to shield resists.
Naga: 10% to hybrid range 5% to hybrid damage.

With the prices bound to be similar between them and the speed of the Naga not being it's selling point, what benefit is there to having the Naga over the Rohk? If the Naga could be used as a high speed blaster or torp boat it would give it an applicable role, smash and grab assault. Wit this ballancing the Naga does no better in cap or BS warfare than the Rokh which can stay in the fight a lot longer due to it's tank, increased PG and similar price/skills. IMHO, the Naga is out of place with this bonus set, simply making it a less favorable version of the tier three BS and no real individual role.


Rokh - 120 mill, very slow, poor agility
Naga - 50 mill, considerably faster and more agile, and 25% more damage than the Rokh.
Naga gets damage and mobility, Rokh gets EHP. That almost sounds balanced!

Being a high-speed assault boat is not the Naga's job, that's what the Talos is there for.


Not sure if you are being ironic - but the Rokh tank numbers are not 'balanced' compared to their armor brethen; the Amarr Abaddon.

Like the Rokh it also gets 5% resist bonus, but unlike the Rokh, it doesn't lose a tank slot to a MWD, and still has mid slots left for Cap Boost and a scram. The Rokh has to use those slots for tank and the low slots for cap stability and tracking, and with a like for like shield extender for plate etc - the Abaddon comes out at an average of 80% resists versus 75% on the Rokh, while having a vastly smaller signature, similar speed, longer range and more damage. Depending on how you want to fit it, you can end up with 70-150,000 EHP difference in tank numbers.

Amarr also get, a damnation that can fit a 400,000 EHP buffer tank (yes, it can go that high) - that will increase with the new T2 gang links to even more, a guardian logistics ship with the smallest signature almost twice the EHP of the Basilisk, with a better overall fit, and a triage carrier with the best cap regeneration.

Combined with lasers, this is why armor fleet gang = best fleet gang.

The Caldari Hybrid boats should be level pegging with the Amarr, but the difference is quite vast in fleet viability at present because of the Vulture tank and signature / EHP size of the Basilisk. Even with the hybrid fixes Caldari pilots can only stare at the Drake and ECM boats as really useful in PvP.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Mapets
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#455 - 2011-11-14 20:38:40 UTC
minie - are geting a posibile substitute for the nano tempest (bc is cheaper)

Amarr - getting a verry damn good ship

Gallente - a gorgeous looking ship they can fit with broken guns .... pointless,... they'd be better off with another droneboat then this thing.

Caldary - the aproach on the ship is all wrong soo it is a compleate fail.
Why do we nead another torp launcher 'fregate' when u alwready have the sb on all races that fitt that role ?
why not:
role bonuses : ability to fit siege and cruise missile launchers;
BC skill lvl bonus 10% bonus to siege and cruise missile velocity and 7,5 bonus to kinetic missile dmg
Soo getting either a closerange torp boat able to realy hurt caps and bs(with some painters true) or a realy longrange missileboat as caldary ships are said to be...
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#456 - 2011-11-14 20:43:15 UTC
Well the latest from SiSi has the Naga looking much better with the rails only bonuses - the problem is it only serves to make the Talos now fall into last place.

We went from Tornado>Oracle>Talos>Naga to Tornado>Oracle>Naga>Talos. Spot the hybrids at the bottom of the pile still X

With the range bonus the Naga can now use respectable ammo and apply better dps than than Talos at any range they'd care to engage until they close to within about 20km, and that's not what these ships will be doing. So the Talos has drones now? That really does nothing to rescue this ship, it's still a train wreck.

For crying out loud CCP, it's 4 ships !! 4 ships from scratch !! Surely you can get better balance than this?
Javius Rong
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#457 - 2011-11-14 20:46:48 UTC

the Talos really needs to be able to fit small webbing drones. Make the drone bandwidth really high for web drones with a bonus for the Talos to utilize (99% bandwidth reduction) these drones. Give the a flight of 5 drones a 30 to 40% speed reduction (less than a web). Talos problem solved. Keep the current gun bonuses.

I like the change to the Naga. Torp Naga could have worked if CCP would have allowed explosion radius reduction or a significant +% damage.
Sim Cognito
Obani Gemini Corporation
#458 - 2011-11-14 21:22:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Sim Cognito
Excellent work on the Naga changes!


It works and feels a lot better as a dedicated hybrid platform. With the now appropriate bonuses the ship is viable and actually usable. Some powergrid/cpu adjustments may be needed - as with all the new battlecruisers - but other than that, I don't see any major problems with the Naga so far.



Thank you!




EDIT: I am under the impression that the Naga right now cannot fit Large Tech 2 Railguns at all. Someone with the skills should confirm though. Also it seems to be a little sort on CPU.


The Naga needs some extra CPU and Powergrid.
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
#459 - 2011-11-14 21:34:09 UTC
BarryBonez wrote:
so what was wrong with increasing the torpedo velocity to 20 or 30% per level?

Great. Now the Naga not loses missile bonusses but also the element of surprise. I saw it in a role of a mini-Typhoon; has it hybrids? Torps? Both?

Not going to train large hybrids for this. Too bad then.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#460 - 2011-11-14 21:44:45 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Here is the latest update on these ships:

NAGA


  • Missile role removed, now focuses as a hybrid platform
  • 10% Torpedo velocity per level swapped for 5% to Large Hybrid Turret damage per level


As pointed out, even with the velocity bonus, torpedoes have a too short of a range to be useful in practical situation with the Naga since it has the lowest mobility of all tier 3 battlecruisers and quite poor defensive options. Aligning this ship into a missile platform would have required a long range option as well, meaning the use of cruise missiles, which created a certain number of issues.

Specializing for a hybrid long range platform made more sense with the Naga role, which is why the damage bonus was appealing, especially when combined with CCP Tallest changes; it also makes more sense regarding Caldari tier philosophy, where highest tech 1 tiers usually are hybrid platforms (Merlin, Moa, Rokh).

I understand the desire for the Naga to be a great hybrid platform, and I think that's good, but I very much believe that there is no reason we cannot have both missiles and guns on the same ship.

I REALLY liked having the option to field Torpedoes. A lot. Haters gonna hate, but it was one of my favorites of the new ships; none of the others had the same effect.

The biggest issue facing the Naga's damage projection was the low velocity of its torpedoes compared to that of the ship (the ship was often faster than its own missiles). Giving something like a built-in role bonus that gives it +150% torpedo velocity and -60% torpedo flight time would solve this completely, giving it more rapid projection without changing its range; I also believe that there is no good reason not to bring back the explosion velocity bonus for Torpedoes, as it REALLY would not be helping it hit smaller targets as was originally believed.

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