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Crime & Punishment

 
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Ganking too easy?
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Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
#21 - 2013-09-11 09:01:00 UTC
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:

The question is: Why do Kill Rights exist if they are useless?

I would happily take matters into my own hands but it is useless. Being able to destroy the cheap ship of a purpose built alt in not even better than nothing as you would have to take the time to track it down. The ganked is actively penalized throughout as the situation stands.


They are not useless, it's just that their use is rather specific. Right now, they discourage respectable highsec entities (missioneers, industrialists, mercenaries that operate within the boundaries of the law) to take up merry manslaughter (ganking) as an afternoon hobby.
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#22 - 2013-09-11 09:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldus Dumbledore
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:

The question is: Why do Kill Rights exist if they are useless?

I would happily take matters into my own hands but it is useless. Being able to destroy the cheap ship of a purpose built alt in not even better than nothing as you would have to take the time to track it down. The ganked is actively penalized throughout as the situation stands.


They are not useless, it's just that their use is rather specific. Right now, they discourage respectable highsec entities (missioneers, industrialists, mercenaries that operate within the boundaries of the law) to take up merry manslaughter (ganking) as an afternoon hobby.



True enough. But all players are presently being encouraged to creates a purpose built ganker Alt that they can dual train up in a few weeks.

This is what it comes down to:

For the cost of a Plex or two I can make a ganker alt that can henceforth pay for all my game play with a few well picked ganks a month.

As noted by the well meaning gentleman earlier in the thread, currently this would be "smart" game play.


ps. It should be noted that I am well aware that the Eve economy is dependent on shizz getting blow up. As posted in other threads some gankers just need to sell some Mackinaws, so they go blow some up...CCP clearly monitors their economy so that PVP is affordable (I think it is). This requires a consumption of resources. Highsec does not need to be "sanitized" entirely for this reason. I DO think that one should fit an adequate tank...to keep the shield and armor market viable. BUT, when one is attacked in a currently defined as "criminal" activity in highsec there is no deterrent that is remotely in place. It simply is not the kind of gameplay that most choose as it is not what all consider "fun".
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-09-11 09:26:18 UTC
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:

Couldn't agree more that it is best to avoid ganking through proper fitting and piloting. That goes without saying.

The question is: Why do Kill Rights exist if they are useless?

I would happily take matters into my own hands but it is useless. Being able to destroy the cheap ship of a purpose built alt in not even better than nothing as you would have to take the time to track it down. The ganked is actively penalized throughout as the situation stands.


You're right about kill rights not being of much use but your solution won't work either.

Okay lets look at your plan. You hire a locator agent to track down that nasty criminal who ganked you. You travel the 20 jumps to lowsec/ nullsec where you blow up his one billion ISK Nightmare. Great plan except one minor detail... You could have attacked him without the kill right. My point is kill rights only allow you to attack in highsec. Sure if it's lowsec you might have a slight sec status hit but does that really matter.

What is boils down to is no system of flagging the offending player is going to work to extract some type of recourse. Many of these gankers are -10 sec status. This means they can be killed and podded by anyone at any time. No kill rights needed and this does nothing to hurt them because they fly from the station, do the gank and fly away in a pod.

Yes I agree gankers have the upper hand and kill rights are almost useless. I also agree when you said "The ganked is actively penalized"... Most of the time he's being penalized for failing to follow some basic rules on how not to get ganked!
Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#24 - 2013-09-11 10:13:54 UTC
I'd have to ask you to try it for a while. Just saying, walk a mile in their shoes.
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
Antony E Stark
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-09-11 10:32:04 UTC
I think it's fine.

Run your PVE in a system less likely to have gankers around. Dodixie for example, is a really bad idea. As are any of the major hubs.

Better still - run it in a raven with T2 stuff. No one will even look at you then. If you're undocking in ded/officer crap then you're basically walking through the centre of Liverpool, at night, with an iPhone, iPad wearing a polo neck and man bag, drinking a skinny mocha and skipping down the street. You may as well be yelling "Hey, muggers! Over here, please come and beat the crap out of me and take my stuff".
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#26 - 2013-09-11 10:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
deleted.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-09-11 10:37:29 UTC
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
OP has a good point. As it is, the killright system is very asymmetric and favours the low-cost ganker. If my ganker's modus operandi is to zerg with low-cost destroyers, I should be able to retaliate with an anti-zerg strategy and blow up god-knows-how-many destroyers.


i had a burst killed at a low sec gate camp.
a few days later whilst sitting in a cyno ship i remembered i had a bunch of kill rights.
i made them available to all for 20 mill.
one of the guys immediately convo'd me on the pointlessness of my doing this (esp with -10 chars).
someone bought one of the killrights a couple of weeks later and i made a profit from my lost logi frig.

my point is i had no interest in expending any effort for "revenge" on a minor inconvieniance. If you want revenge on these guys why on earth would you want to kill hundreds of their catalysts? who has the time to make that sort of effort for ****** kills?
If you want revenge do some research, infiltrate and spy. Find their mains. Kill their carriers /jump freighters/ incursion ships /other shiny toys.
What you shouldn't do is come here whining.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#28 - 2013-09-11 11:15:55 UTC
I don't think I was whining, just offering my support to increase the breadth of retaliation.
Soylent Jade
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-09-11 12:54:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Soylent Jade
1) I'd like to see this mythical 800 DPS Catalyst for 3M. You can get 800 with a T2 if you have blingy implants, but those Cats are more like 10-12M, not 3.

2) Most gankers are flashy, which make kill rights (and this entire thread) worthless.

Making hisec better...one Catalyst at a time

minerbumping.com
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#30 - 2013-09-11 13:53:03 UTC
The fun part is watching the gank bears try to say what a bad idea this is, in fact its a damn good idea, because it gives the person who was attacked the ability to impact the gankers gameplay in a meaningful way, blowing up a single Catalyst does not work, but blowing up a reasonable number will impact the gankers significantly.

Note one going on about whining, and some splerge about how good he is, suggesting that people find out the main etc and kill something meaty, yeah as if, lol and another using the blinky red status from -10, yeah right, as if Tags don't exist and as if you don't use them.

This is an excellent idea and CCP should action this so people have a chance to get meaningful revenge for their loss.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#31 - 2013-09-11 15:15:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldus Dumbledore
Soylent Jade wrote:
1) I'd like to see this mythical 800 DPS Catalyst for 3M. You can get 800 with a T2 if you have blingy implants, but those Cats are more like 10-12M, not 3.

2) Most gankers are flashy, which make kill rights (and this entire thread) worthless.




This thread would be worthless if all gankers were flashy. Instead, by the time from creation to when they have honed their craft they are merely low sec yellows and have a nice long window of profitable opportunity. Can this go on forever? Yes. Make another account and for the price of a Plex or two in training time you can make an alt to finance many month's of game play from profitable ganking.

If "being flashy" was a deterrent then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

What would be a deterrent is an "in kind" balancing of the books ie you "criminally" (as defined by game mechanics) destroy/jack my assets in high sec then I get to take a percentage of the loss out of you too. Not all, just a percentage. The ganked get penalized for maybe having failed to properly fit their ship. The gankers actually experience a penalty by worthwhile payback being present.

If I get to pop 30 catalysts as a fraction of my loss I will pop them all day long until the gankers realize that maybe it's not so fun getting those no armor ships blown up every time they undock. And they can continue to gank as no mechanic (ie Super Concord) is there to prevent them. We take matters into our own hands to police high sec with a mechanic that actually allows us to do so.

Maybe we wouldn't see quite so many financing their game play in this fashion and you wouldn't see the same Tornados parked outside Jita dock every single day.

Kill Rights are broken as they make ganking too easy and profitable.
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#32 - 2013-09-11 15:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldus Dumbledore
Crimson Gauntlet wrote:
I'd have to ask you to try it for a while. Just saying, walk a mile in their shoes.


I have played many games and have greatly enjoyed the "stalk" and the rewards of an little operation well planned and executed. I have never enjoyed stealing from people however.

In low/null it is the expectation that people will stalk you (hey, we stalk them). People will defend territory and resources etc. You can kill them, they can kill you yadda yadda. That is the game there.

What is broken about the high sec system is that I can't get satisfaction by destroying one catalyst. In low sec, if (insert hated corp here) comes in system we know it's on and we can devote full resources. In high sec, if I exercise my kill rights once I then have to watch the gankers lining up their next kill day after day and I am powerless to do anything about it. If it was low sec we would easily drive them off based on our commitment to devoting resources in proportion. It eventually makes no economic sense for them to stick around.

In low/null you are only limited by your willingness to fight. In hisec, I have to take a security hit myself and get my ship blown up by concord to deter a "crime" I know is moments from occurring. All of this greatly favors those ganking for profit.

I don't want permanent Kill Rights. I want a kill right that allows me to take a chunk of their assets too in some measure of proportion to my loss.
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#33 - 2013-09-11 15:47:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldus Dumbledore
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:
Crimson Gauntlet wrote:
I'd have to ask you to try it for a while. Just saying, walk a mile in their shoes.


I have played many games and have greatly enjoyed the "stalk" and the rewards of an little operation well planned and executed. I have never enjoyed stealing from people however.

In low/null it is the expectation that people will stalk you (hey, we stalk them). People will defend territory and resources etc. You can kill them, they can kill you yadda yadda. That is the game there.

What is broken about the high sec system is that I can't get satisfaction by destroying one catalyst. In low sec, if (insert hated corp here) comes in system we know it's on and we can devote full resources. In high sec, if I exercise my kill rights once I then have to watch the gankers lining up their next kill day after day and I am powerless to do anything about it. If it was low sec we would easily drive them off.

In low/null you are only limited by your willingness to fight. In hisec, I have to take a security hit myself and get my ship blown up by concord to deter a "crime" I know is moments from occurring. All of this greatly favors those ganking for profit. All I still get to shoot are cheap gank fit ships (at least they die easy). Whereas if they get me they get a vastly more costly ship (I have to properly field a pvp fit).

We exploit this all the time breaking up gate camps in small gangs of essentially suicide ships. They cost nothing in comparison to the nados and canes we have destroyed.

I don't want permanent Kill Rights. I want a kill right that allows me to take a chunk of their assets too in some measure of proportion to my loss instead of the current zero.
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#34 - 2013-09-11 16:39:23 UTC
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:
Soylent Jade wrote:
1) I'd like to see this mythical 800 DPS Catalyst for 3M. You can get 800 with a T2 if you have blingy implants, but those Cats are more like 10-12M, not 3.

2) Most gankers are flashy, which make kill rights (and this entire thread) worthless.




This thread would be worthless if all gankers were flashy. Instead, by the time from creation to when they have honed their craft they are merely low sec yellows and have a nice long window of profitable opportunity. Can this go on forever? Yes. Make another account and for the price of a Plex or two in training time you can make an alt to finance many month's of game play from profitable ganking.

If "being flashy" was a deterrent then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

What would be a deterrent is an "in kind" balancing of the books ie you "criminally" (as defined by game mechanics) destroy/jack my assets in high sec then I get to take a percentage of the loss out of you too. Not all, just a percentage. The ganked get penalized for maybe having failed to properly fit their ship. The gankers actually experience a penalty by worthwhile payback being present. Their whole economic calculus is reset.

If I get to pop 30 catalysts as a fraction of my loss I will pop them all day long until the gankers realize that maybe it's not so fun getting those no armor ships blown up every time they undock. And they can continue to gank as no mechanic (ie Super Concord) is there to prevent them. We take matters into our own hands to police high sec with a mechanic that actually allows us to do so.

Maybe we wouldn't see quite so many financing their game play in this fashion and you wouldn't see the same Tornados parked outside Jita dock every single day.

Kill Rights are broken as they make ganking too easy and profitable.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-09-11 16:42:15 UTC
Soylent Jade wrote:

2) Most gankers are flashy, which make kill rights (and this entire thread) worthless.


^This


I don't think these higsec carebears are comprehending this. If someone is -5 or lower it doesn't matter if by ganking your ship CCP gave you free kill rights for a whole year.


Please read and repeat out loud!

EVERYONE has the right to kill a pilot with a -5 or lower security status ANYTIME without ANY intervention by CONCORD or anyone else. This applies to highsec, lowsec, and nullsec.
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#36 - 2013-09-11 16:49:17 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Soylent Jade wrote:

2) Most gankers are flashy, which make kill rights (and this entire thread) worthless.


^This


I don't think these higsec carebears are comprehending this. If someone is -5 or lower it doesn't matter if by ganking your ship CCP gave you free kill rights for a whole year.


Please read and repeat out loud!

EVERYONE has the right to kill a pilot with a -5 or lower security status ANYTIME without ANY intervention by CONCORD or anyone else. This applies to highsec, lowsec, and nullsec.



I don't think you get it.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-09-11 16:56:56 UTC
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Soylent Jade wrote:

2) Most gankers are flashy, which make kill rights (and this entire thread) worthless.


^This


I don't think these higsec carebears are comprehending this. If someone is -5 or lower it doesn't matter if by ganking your ship CCP gave you free kill rights for a whole year.


Please read and repeat out loud!

EVERYONE has the right to kill a pilot with a -5 or lower security status ANYTIME without ANY intervention by CONCORD or anyone else. This applies to highsec, lowsec, and nullsec.



I don't think you get it.


Okay maybe I don't... Please explain how you think the game could be made so victims of ganks would be able to get resolution against a -5 sec status pilot? I'm all ears here!
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#38 - 2013-09-11 17:21:06 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Soylent Jade wrote:

2) Most gankers are flashy, which make kill rights (and this entire thread) worthless.


^This


I don't think these higsec carebears are comprehending this. If someone is -5 or lower it doesn't matter if by ganking your ship CCP gave you free kill rights for a whole year.


Please read and repeat out loud!

EVERYONE has the right to kill a pilot with a -5 or lower security status ANYTIME without ANY intervention by CONCORD or anyone else. This applies to highsec, lowsec, and nullsec.



I don't think you get it.


Okay maybe I don't... Please explain how you think the game could be made so victims of ganks would be able to get resolution against a -5 sec status pilot? I'm all ears here!


Here's an idea. You shoot them. What is broken about that mechanic is that they have the identical align time as pilots with good security status. So change that. A drop in security status steadily drops your align time in Hi Sec so that you are actually vulnerable when traveling... or for a -10 pilot web/scram towers kick in at the gates letting even newbie Ibis's take shots at him?

It is pointless to allow low sec standing pilots to capsule back and forth to Jita like nothing has changed for them other than they can't afk navigate while taking a dump as their align time is so fast...just as it is pointless to think that their sec status is a deterrent due to their freedom to travel rapidly.

Anything is possible. This is a Computer game. The idea is a re-balancing of ganking so that Kill Rights are functionally useful so people can take care of their own business.
Soylent Jade
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-09-11 17:27:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Soylent Jade
Dracvlad wrote:
The fun part is watching the gank bears try to say what a bad idea this is, in fact its a damn good idea, because it gives the person who was attacked the ability to impact the gankers gameplay in a meaningful way, blowing up a single Catalyst does not work, but blowing up a reasonable number will impact the gankers significantly.

Note one going on about whining, and some splerge about how good he is, suggesting that people find out the main etc and kill something meaty, yeah as if, lol and another using the blinky red status from -10, yeah right, as if Tags don't exist and as if you don't use them.

This is an excellent idea and CCP should action this so people have a chance to get meaningful revenge for their loss.



AFAIK it is against the EULA to constantly recycle negative sec status characters. Every ganker I know is a dedicated ganking alt that wears their -10 as a badge of honor. What percentage of gankers do you think are going to spend time farming tags and/or 100's of millions of ISK to get back to -1.9 just so they can go flashy again a day later? Not many.

I never, ever, fly anything except Catalysts. You'll never see me in a ship worth more than about 12M. I undock with a quick undock book mark, fly to my target, spend 10-20 seconds out of warp blowing up my target, and dock back up with a quick dock book mark. You *may* get lucky and insta lock/gibb one of my Cats undocking or at a gate. If you want to waste that much time camping me more power to you, but don't be surprised when your Tornado or whatever gets ganked,too. Your chance to get a "meaningful" kill on me (and most other gankers) is zero. Even my pod isn't worth that much. I may train up to BCs for Orca/freighter ganks, but in that case, I'd be part of a fleet and you'd die before you could gank it, or at least at the same time.

Aldus Dumbledore wrote:
What is broken about that mechanic is that they have the identical align time as pilots with good security status. So change that. A drop in security status steadily drops your align time in Hi Sec so that you are actually vulnerable when traveling... or for a -10 pilot web/scram towers kick in at the gates letting even newbie Ibis's take shots at him?

It is pointless to allow low sec standing pilots to capsule back and forth to Jita like nothing has changed for them other than they can't afk navigate while taking a dump as their align time is so fast...just as it is pointless to think that their sec status is a deterrent due to their freedom to travel rapidly.

Anything is possible. This is a Computer game. The idea is a re-balancing of ganking so that Kill Rights are functionally useful so people can take care of their own business.


LOL why would my ship align slower because of my sec status? Try to come up with things that at least make sense.

Making hisec better...one Catalyst at a time

minerbumping.com
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#40 - 2013-09-11 17:44:49 UTC
Soylent Jade wrote:
AFAIK it is against the EULA to constantly recycle negative sec status characters. Every ganker I know is a dedicated ganking alt that wears their -10 as a badge of honor. What percentage of gankers do you think are going to spend time farming tags and/or 100's of millions of ISK to get back to -1.9 just so they can go flashy again a day later? Not many.

I never, ever, fly anything except Catalysts. You'll never see me in a ship worth more than about 12M. I undock with a quick undock book mark, fly to my target, spend 10-20 seconds out of warp blowing up my target, and dock back up with a quick dock book mark. You *may* get lucky and insta lock/gibb one of my Cats undocking or at a gate. If you want to waste that much time camping me more power to you, but don't be surprised when your Tornado or whatever gets ganked,too. Your chance to get a "meaningful" kill on me (and most other gankers) is zero. Even my pod isn't worth that much. I may train up to BCs for Orca/freighter ganks, but in that case, I'd be part of a fleet and you'd die before you could gank it, or at least at the same time..


I have said nothing about recycling characters, it is irrelevent to this suggestion, many gankers will be buying these tags or have someone farming them, those that don't well -10 thats good then.

Your point on the Catalysts is the key issue here, I would like kill rights adjusted so that the kill rights for trhe victim work on the value of the ship lost, if they sell it then it works on a single kill only, creates emergent gameplay, what is wrong with that.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp