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Buff torpedos please ccp

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Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#41 - 2013-09-11 10:42:04 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
The point that cruise are so good for pve that torps are difficult to justify makes sense, but as Malc says, we can't necessarily just make a change based on that situation when both torps and cruise are trying to compete in the pvp environment and for now are still beat out by turrets in most situations.

So torps are crap for PVE and they suck in PVP. But you cannot improve them, because they'll be OP. Anyone see some logics here?
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#42 - 2013-09-11 10:44:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Any change done to ammo it self, launchers or skill tree will exponentially benefit to Bombers that are already way too good.

And it's close to impossible to correct SB's bonuses.
:sarcasm:
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-09-11 11:06:50 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Any change done to ammo it self, launchers or skill tree will exponentially benefit to Bombers that are already way too good.

And it's close to impossible to correct SB's bonuses.
:sarcasm:



Indeed it's an option but not mandatory, it's the easiest road to take it's pretty obvious.
What is less obvious is the overall impact when you touch more than one ship with different roles because of a simple issue that can perfectly be easily solved by improving a simple EWAR module, and by the same time a hole race EWAR dedicated ships like Minmatar that are pretty well known for the useless side of their EWAR.

Amirite or Amiwrong it's not the point, it's an opinion.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#44 - 2013-09-11 11:07:09 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

A lot of good points in here. I don't think we're ready to make a big change to torps or cruise right now, but I agree that we need to think about it. The point that cruise are so good for pve that torps are difficult to justify makes sense, but as Malc says, we can't necessarily just make a change based on that situation when both torps and cruise are trying to compete in the pvp environment and for now are still beat out by turrets in most situations.

One of the ideas that I agree most with is that the rof feels very long which can make torps harder to manage, and the ammo capacity is very low so it feels like you have to reload too much.

I'll make sure we talk about this in the near future and see if any adjustments are necessary.


That's all well and good, but I hope you also recognise that you need to make Torps viable in Lvl 4s. So if you are not prepared to change the Torps themselves, then could you reconsider the Torp bonuses assigned to the Golem to give it more range? It's ridiculous that an SB can fire Torps further than a Marauder.

Please address. With sugar and cherries on top.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-09-11 11:18:46 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

A lot of good points in here. I don't think we're ready to make a big change to torps or cruise right now, but I agree that we need to think about it. The point that cruise are so good for pve that torps are difficult to justify makes sense, but as Malc says, we can't necessarily just make a change based on that situation when both torps and cruise are trying to compete in the pvp environment and for now are still beat out by turrets in most situations.

One of the ideas that I agree most with is that the rof feels very long which can make torps harder to manage, and the ammo capacity is very low so it feels like you have to reload too much.

I'll make sure we talk about this in the near future and see if any adjustments are necessary.


That's all well and good, but I hope you also recognise that you need to make Torps viable in Lvl 4s. So if you are not prepared to change the Torps themselves, then could you reconsider the Torp bonuses assigned to the Golem to give it more range? It's ridiculous that an SB can fire Torps further than a Marauder.

Please address. With sugar and cherries on top.



Torps are in line with Blasters/Autocanons/Pulse as short range weapon system; more range means rigs efforts and it's a fair trade off.
30km range for a short range battleship weapon system is balanced with the other SR systems and ships, comparing Golem to Sbs is silly however, not only for ship size but most important because of their totally different role.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-09-11 11:38:57 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

30km range for a short range battleship weapon system is balanced with the other SR systems and ships, comparing Golem to Sbs is silly however, not only for ship size but most important because of their totally different role.


Pulse lasers and to a lesser extent 800mm arties would like a word with that.
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#47 - 2013-09-11 11:44:15 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Any change done to ammo it self, launchers or skill tree will exponentially benefit to Bombers that are already way too good.

And it's close to impossible to correct SB's bonuses.
:sarcasm:



Indeed it's an option but not mandatory, it's the easiest road to take it's pretty obvious.
What is less obvious is the overall impact when you touch more than one ship with different roles because of a simple issue that can perfectly be easily solved by improving a simple EWAR module, and by the same time a hole race EWAR dedicated ships like Minmatar that are pretty well known for the useless side of their EWAR.

Amirite or Amiwrong it's not the point, it's an opinion.


I agree (and even liked) but you have to tread a bit carefully with the effects this will have on ceptors etc... On the other hand if you are in a ceptor and see a hostile Rapier on the overview you are most probably dead meat anyway...
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-09-11 11:59:43 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

30km range for a short range battleship weapon system is balanced with the other SR systems and ships, comparing Golem to Sbs is silly however, not only for ship size but most important because of their totally different role.


Pulse lasers and to a lesser extent 800mm arties would like a word with that.



Pulse lasers with SCORCH svp mkay? -it's well known scorch is out of whack, doesn't make the weapon system OP at all

800mm Arties I don't know about, but I know 800mm Auto Canons and again, I have to repeat my self each time this becomes boring you guys can't think or only when it suits your arguments, you're just putting on the spot light SOME ship with double range bonus with full TE and TC script range or whatever the heck module to prove your point.

FALSE ! -fit hydraulic thruster rigs on your ship and tell me how far you can shoot with your Torps? -don't waste your time, I already know how much, me too haz Pyfa/EFT on top of fitted ships in my hangars.



removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-09-11 12:10:15 UTC
Darling Hassasin wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Any change done to ammo it self, launchers or skill tree will exponentially benefit to Bombers that are already way too good.

And it's close to impossible to correct SB's bonuses.
:sarcasm:



Indeed it's an option but not mandatory, it's the easiest road to take it's pretty obvious.
What is less obvious is the overall impact when you touch more than one ship with different roles because of a simple issue that can perfectly be easily solved by improving a simple EWAR module, and by the same time a hole race EWAR dedicated ships like Minmatar that are pretty well known for the useless side of their EWAR.

Amirite or Amiwrong it's not the point, it's an opinion.


I agree (and even liked) but you have to tread a bit carefully with the effects this will have on ceptors etc... On the other hand if you are in a ceptor and see a hostile Rapier on the overview you are most probably dead meat anyway...


Thx

About effects on Ceptors I'd like indeed to add a new comment.
The specific case of ceptors is indeed something to consider but unlike SBs tweaks I'm all for giving Ceptors 100% bonus to sign radius but increase their base sign radius a bit, those are interceptors they should be fast as f_ck, strong capacitors to deal with neuts, huge agility bonus and little sign radius even when mwd on.

Lets admit base full fit and mwd on ceptor is gimp to 75 armor and 85 shield ones but get a 100% mwd sign radius bonus, doesn't change anything to ceptor pilots because they already turn their mwd off and run AB once in range.
Then for dmg application a +12% bonus on one TP wouldn't make that ceptor any bigger than it is already now with mwd bonus, however this TP change would help a lot for BSs to hit ships from cruiser to BS sized targets.

So indeed your point about ceptors is indeed a good point to consider, specially since the affecting bonus (mwd) is a simple number to change on top of another simple number (sign radius) to change without major effects on the ship it self and environment.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#50 - 2013-09-11 12:31:13 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Torps are in line with Blasters/Autocanons/Pulse as short range weapon system; more range means rigs efforts and it's a fair trade off.
30km range for a short range battleship weapon system is balanced with the other SR systems and ships, comparing Golem to Sbs is silly however, not only for ship size but most important because of their totally different role.


Well done for spectacularly missing the point.

Torps shouldn't be considered a short range weapon system. You shouldn't have to use rigs to obtain a reasonable range, that's crap. You don't have to do it with CMs and you shouldn't have to do it with Torps. But that's all crap anyway, because even with rigs the Torp range on a Golem still sucks balls.

I will compare SB with Golem because it proves CCP can give adequate Torp range if they choose to. They instead choose just to be difficult, as usual.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#51 - 2013-09-11 12:39:43 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Torps are in line with Blasters/Autocanons/Pulse as short range weapon system; more range means rigs efforts and it's a fair trade off.
30km range for a short range battleship weapon system is balanced with the other SR systems and ships, comparing Golem to Sbs is silly however, not only for ship size but most important because of their totally different role.


Well done for spectacularly missing the point.

Torps shouldn't be considered a short range weapon system. You shouldn't have to use rigs to obtain a reasonable range, that's crap. You don't have to do it with CMs and you shouldn't have to do it with Torps. But that's all crap anyway, because even with rigs the Torp range on a Golem still sucks balls.

I will compare SB with Golem because it proves CCP can give adequate Torp range if they choose to. They instead choose just to be difficult, as usual.


You sir, are wrong, torps are a short range weaponn system. Golem is bonused for both the short and long range weapon system, and SBs are an exeption...
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#52 - 2013-09-11 12:41:18 UTC
Kalihira wrote:
You sir, are wrong, torps are a short range weaponn system. Golem is bonused for both the short and long range weapon system, and SBs are an exeption...


How is 38KM short range?

When CCP tell me I am wrong then I'll accept it, I'm not interested in your opinion.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Roseline Penshar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-09-11 12:57:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Roseline Penshar
how about not change the way torp are now but change all missile BS to have bonus toward torp max velocity like increase 10% for all type (means 20% to golem, CNR and raven but 10% for typhoon and SNI)
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-09-11 13:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:




[Pulse lasers with SCORCH svp mkay? -it's well known scorch is out of whack, doesn't make the weapon system OP at all

800mm Arties I don't know about, but I know 800mm Auto Canons and again, I have to repeat my self each time this becomes boring you guys can't think or only when it suits your arguments, you're just putting on the spot light SOME ship with double range bonus with full TE and TC script range or whatever the heck module to prove your point.

FALSE ! -fit hydraulic thruster rigs on your ship and tell me how far you can shoot with your Torps? -don't waste your time, I already know how much, me too haz Pyfa/EFT on top of fitted ships in my hangars.





1) Abbadon 960dps 19484 + 16389 no range bonus with faction multi frequ
2) Maelstrom with 800mm repeating ARTILLERY II (they are ACs) 1020dps 3586 + 33806 again no range bonus on the hull
3) Raven (dual range bonused hull) 1000 DPS sub-45km (guessing about 38km) after which it does no damage....and you need two fuel cashes and a bay thruster to push them that far, and a painter, and someone to web your target down.

They don't compare favorably.


Specially when you start talking optimal or fall off bonused hulls.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-09-11 13:10:05 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Kalihira wrote:
You sir, are wrong, torps are a short range weaponn system. Golem is bonused for both the short and long range weapon system, and SBs are an exeption...


How is 38KM short range?

When CCP tell me I am wrong then I'll accept it, I'm not interested in your opinion.



Pulsepocs reach 90km Domi's hit 70ish with gardes mach can push barrage range to about 90km.

All short range systems.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#56 - 2013-09-11 14:45:46 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

A lot of good points in here. I don't think we're ready to make a big change to torps or cruise right now, but I agree that we need to think about it. The point that cruise are so good for pve that torps are difficult to justify makes sense, but as Malc says, we can't necessarily just make a change based on that situation when both torps and cruise are trying to compete in the pvp environment and for now are still beat out by turrets in most situations.

One of the ideas that I agree most with is that the rof feels very long which can make torps harder to manage, and the ammo capacity is very low so it feels like you have to reload too much.

I'll make sure we talk about this in the near future and see if any adjustments are necessary.



if you increase rof on torps will they not get g-dly dps?

though yeah more ammo per reload would be nice... honestly... just give torps a base flight time incease...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#57 - 2013-09-11 14:58:43 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

A lot of good points in here. I don't think we're ready to make a big change to torps or cruise right now, but I agree that we need to think about it. The point that cruise are so good for pve that torps are difficult to justify makes sense, but as Malc says, we can't necessarily just make a change based on that situation when both torps and cruise are trying to compete in the pvp environment and for now are still beat out by turrets in most situations.

One of the ideas that I agree most with is that the rof feels very long which can make torps harder to manage, and the ammo capacity is very low so it feels like you have to reload too much.

I'll make sure we talk about this in the near future and see if any adjustments are necessary.


Yes yes yes.

Same with rockets, gief moar plx.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Yankunytjatjara
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2013-09-11 15:40:05 UTC
Before tweaking the RoF consider that raising RoF and reducing alpha keeps the dps the same, but

= makes it worse to overheat =

Resulting in lower PVP capabilities!

My solo pvp video: Yankunytjude... That attitude! Solo/small gang proposal: Ship Velocity Vectors
Lara Dantreb
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
#59 - 2013-09-12 09:16:31 UTC
In my opinion, torpedoes should be long range, slow, massive damage dealing ammo. In pvp fired from far behind the brawl. Useless in Pve

---   Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005  ---
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#60 - 2013-09-12 09:32:29 UTC
Lara Dantreb wrote:
In my opinion, torpedoes should be long range, slow, massive damage dealing ammo. In pvp fired from far behind the brawl. Useless in Pve


The weapon you are describing would be awesome for PvE and useless for PvP. It is in fact what torps used to be back in 2007.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016