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GM clarification on rewording of the Terms of Service

First post First post First post
Author
JEFFRAIDER
State War Academy
Caldari State
#121 - 2013-09-10 21:38:27 UTC
You should actually work in some sort of prize if someone successfully maliciously impersonates someone else in EVE. Like some concord LP or something if you pull off a tight scam.

Sincerely,

JEFFRAIDER,
Goonswarm Talent Management Specialist
asdasdada dadadadsada
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#122 - 2013-09-10 21:42:09 UTC
JEFFRAIDER wrote:
You should actually work in some sort of prize if someone successfully maliciously impersonates someone else in EVE. Like some concord LP or something if you pull off a tight scam.

Sincerely,

JEFFRAIDER,
Goonswarm Talent Management Specialist


reported
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-09-10 21:42:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Ali Aras wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
If I apply to an NC. corp claiming to be Vince Draken's cyno alt, am accepted, then go on a wild Awoxing spree, then again by the newly presented wording I've breached the TOS.

Is this your intention?

It's my understanding that this was already (recently) banned by TOS or impersonation policy somewhere.


Apparently you've become the new Hans Jagerblitzen ... apologizing on behalf of CCP for things you're not familiar with. This might be a case of improper impersonation. :)

The situation described was never illegal, unless the person named their character in such a way to pose as an alt. For instance, real alts name is leo (lowercase L) and the faker named a character as Ieo (uppercase i). This was covered in the NAMING POLICY and was bannable.

The act of just stating that you're an alt of someone (with no naming violations) was not against the TOS previously.

Previously, if I wanted to fly around (as Poetic) and claim that I was an Ali Aras alt, and scam ISK out of people for some purpose (perhaps campaign finances), I could do so freely. Now, according to the TOS, I will be banned for doing so.

The TOS changes are there to protect really stupid people, apparently. People incapable of doing a Google search, or sending an EVEmail to Ali Aras to confirm.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#124 - 2013-09-10 21:44:18 UTC
GM Grimmi wrote:
Greetings pilots,


We would like to address your concerns regarding the update to article 8 of our TOS that was published yesterday. Some basic information on how we deal with issues that come up regarding impersonation is therefore appropriate.

All cases are investigated individually on a case by case basis. If there are complications or difficulties in reaching a solution cases are moved to senior game masters, which happens a lot with the impersonation issues that are reported to us. There are no magic catch-all rules and policies to cover every eventuality so they must interpret the rules we have in place and apply them to the issue at hand in order to keep the peace. For all practical purposes there has been no change in how impersonation issues will be handled compared to the last few years. The TOS update reflects the way reported cases of impersonation have been handled by Customer Support for a long time. The rules applied have been buried in our naming policy and EULA but have now been placed in plain view in order to better help players to make decisions on how they interact with one another.

As cases are investigated GMs look at the information that is available, one of the important considerations being the intent behind a player’s actions. Benevolent roleplaying of NPC entities may not be considered to warrant action in regards to impersonation while malicious activity employing such trickery will not be tolerated.

One concern is that we have pretty much banned all scams in EVE. Clearly, this is not the case.


Thank you and fly safe.


This has to be the worst explanation and clarification I've ever seen in my life. It strikes me as "we are avoiding stipulating a policy that would break EVE but reserve the right to protect our interests if a large group of players in EVE are affected."

No impersonating party A but you can impersonate party B. We'll make the call based on how many subs you represent.



Dave Stark
#125 - 2013-09-10 21:45:23 UTC
didn't that whole alt thing originate from some guy awoxing freighters with a vindicator after he applied to the freighter pilot's corp claiming to be the freighter pilot's alt? which was, until that spree, completely legit?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#126 - 2013-09-10 21:45:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
I'm going to don my fashionable **Dinsdale™ branded tinfoil hat for a second here.

Is this the start of the watering of Eve down, so that it appeals to the masses?
Has the guy from EA had any hand in the new implementation of the ToS?

If either of the above questions can be answered in the affirmative, and if as a result the below scenario becomes reality, do they think Eve will remain a viable game?

Scenario : All the asshats, scammers, gankers, awoxers and other nefarious people that currently drive the market and generate all the decent content leave, as a result of attempts to mass market Eve. CCP is then left with a game with questionable physics and mediocre PvE content.

Despite the assurances of GM Grimmi, the new ToS puts some, up until yesterday, acceptable shenanigans into a limbo where the fate of those indulging in them is at the mercy of an interpretation of something that is as clear as mud by someone who may or may not, be in a good mood, had enough coffee, hungover, have gotten some the night before.

** I am not Dinsdale™, I am not professing to be Dinsdale™, I have never been, and never will be Dinsdale™.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

asdasdada dadadadsada
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2013-09-10 21:46:06 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Ali Aras wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
If I apply to an NC. corp claiming to be Vince Draken's cyno alt, am accepted, then go on a wild Awoxing spree, then again by the newly presented wording I've breached the TOS.

Is this your intention?

It's my understanding that this was already (recently) banned by TOS or impersonation policy somewhere.


Apparently you've become the new Hans Jagerblitzen ... apologizing on behalf of CCP for things you're not familiar with. This might be a case of improper impersonation. :)

The situation described was never illegal, unless the person named their character in such a way to pose as an alt. For instance, real alts name is leo (lowercase L) and the faker named a character as Ieo (uppercase i). This was covered in the NAMING POLICY and was bannable.

The act of just stating that you're an alt of someone (with no naming violations) was not against the TOS previously.

Previously, if I wanted to fly around (as Poetic) and claim that I was an Ali Aras alt, and scam ISK out of people for some purpose (perhaps campaign finances), I could do so freely. Now, according to the TOS, I will be banned for doing so.

The TOS changes are there to protect really stupid people, apparently. People incapable of doing a Google search, or sending an EVEmail to Ali Aras to confirm.


If only smart people subscribed to play EVE Online there would be less than 2000 online at any given time.

CCP are looking for more subs so they can fund games they actually care about.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#128 - 2013-09-10 21:47:53 UTC
Post-clarification, I still have no idea what the rule covers. The clarification basically says: "nothing's changed, trust us." The rule is written so broadly that its meaning depends entirely upon interpretation. It would be great if some case-examples could be laid out as guidelines. Or could someone at least define: "malicious trickery?" Isn't this a way to describe all scams? Are some scams kindhearted trickery?

YK
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#129 - 2013-09-10 21:48:38 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Ali Aras wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
If I apply to an NC. corp claiming to be Vince Draken's cyno alt, am accepted, then go on a wild Awoxing spree, then again by the newly presented wording I've breached the TOS.

Is this your intention?

It's my understanding that this was already (recently) banned by TOS or impersonation policy somewhere.


Apparently you've become the new Hans Jagerblitzen ... apologizing on behalf of CCP for things you're not familiar with. This might be a case of improper impersonation. :)

The situation described was never illegal, unless the person named their character in such a way to pose as an alt. For instance, real alts name is leo (lowercase L) and the faker named a character as Ieo (uppercase i). This was covered in the NAMING POLICY and was bannable.

The act of just stating that you're an alt of someone (with no naming violations) was not against the TOS previously.

Previously, if I wanted to fly around (as Poetic) and claim that I was an Ali Aras alt, and scam ISK out of people for some purpose (perhaps campaign finances), I could do so freely. Now, according to the TOS, I will be banned for doing so.

The TOS changes are there to protect really stupid people, apparently. People incapable of doing a Google search, or sending an EVEmail to Ali Aras to confirm.


"It's my understanding that..." isn't "apologizing" or "defending" CCP. I'd say stop being an idiot, but you're incapable of it.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2013-09-10 21:48:47 UTC
I am waiting for DUST to die already so at least they are only paying attention to 2 games, not three.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Ganque
Ganque's Squad
#131 - 2013-09-10 21:50:56 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
didn't that whole alt thing originate from some guy awoxing freighters with a vindicator after he applied to the freighter pilot's corp claiming to be the freighter pilot's alt? which was, until that spree, completely legit?


So some idiot was dumb enough to let someone into his corp that claimed to be an alt of one of his members without taking the very minimal precaution of checking this postulated fact, then took the time and trouble to petition his own stupidity and somehow got a positive result from the GMs, thus reinforcing his know nothing not my responsibilty attitude, and somehow setting a precedent on the matter Shocked
Carmaine
The Awesome Corp
#132 - 2013-09-10 21:51:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Carmaine
Hello everyone, my name is Carmaine of The Awesome Corp and I would like to announce to everyone in this thread that I have started the EVE Player™ group as well as the carebear™, pirate™ and pvper™ groups!

From now on, if you present yourself as an Eve player, as a carebear, a pirate or simply a pvper, you would break the rule!

Because apparently that's what the ISD said yesterday in the help channel, the CFC, which isn't a real thing in game(Not a corp, player or alliance, and there is no in-game mechanics for a group of alliance), still represents a group of players!

I wonder if a corp that had the thinker CFC before the coalition started could complain that the CFC is representing themselves falsely as them?
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#133 - 2013-09-10 21:54:00 UTC
Look lets all be clear on one point, because it's perhaps possible some people don't know what precipitated this change.

CCP recently banned multiple people for pretending to be someone they were not. They did not make similar looking names, they did not make a corp that looked similar enough, or avatars designed to look the same. They just said "Hey, look we are all that guy".

Under the old wording of the rules, that was **not** against the rules.
Under the new wording of the rules, that was **definitely** against the rules.

Yet CCP are trying to sell this change as something they have totally always done and no change is happening honest, despite the fact the change has literally been made so that the rules can be applied, as written, in the above scenario where they couldn't before.

CCP, it might be helpful (customer relations 101 ITT) if you didn't communicate with your playerbase by citing easily demonstrable lies as justification for a change. Wait, no, it's not a change. It's the same but it's not the same. I can't keep up.

I'm not even against those guys getting banned, I'm just violently against you lying and saying you're not changing the wording so it will apply in more situations, when that is exactly why you've done it.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#134 - 2013-09-10 21:54:26 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Ali Aras wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
If I apply to an NC. corp claiming to be Vince Draken's cyno alt, am accepted, then go on a wild Awoxing spree, then again by the newly presented wording I've breached the TOS.

Is this your intention?

It's my understanding that this was already (recently) banned by TOS or impersonation policy somewhere.


Apparently you've become the new Hans Jagerblitzen ... apologizing on behalf of CCP for things you're not familiar with. This might be a case of improper impersonation. :)


Her beard is nowhere near as luxurious as Hans' flowing mountain man beard.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Dave Stark
#135 - 2013-09-10 21:55:39 UTC
Ganque wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
didn't that whole alt thing originate from some guy awoxing freighters with a vindicator after he applied to the freighter pilot's corp claiming to be the freighter pilot's alt? which was, until that spree, completely legit?


So some idiot was dumb enough to let someone into his corp that claimed to be an alt of one of his members without taking the very minimal precaution of checking this postulated fact, then took the time and trouble to petition his own stupidity and somehow got a positive result from the GMs, thus reinforcing his know nothing not my responsibilty attitude, and somehow setting a precedent on the matter Shocked


that's unfortunate; because i thought it was a great story. stories like that were why i started playing eve, I'm sure i'm not the only one.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#136 - 2013-09-10 21:56:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Look lets all be clear on one point, because it's perhaps possible some people don't know what precipitated this change.

CCP recently banned multiple people for pretending to be someone they were not. They did not make similar looking names, they did not make a corp that looked similar enough, or avatars designed to look the same. They just said "Hey, look we are all that guy".

Under the old wording of the rules, that was **not** against the rules.
Under the new wording of the rules, that was **definitely** against the rules.

Yet CCP are trying to sell this change as something they have totally always done and no change is happening honest, despite the fact the change has literally been made so that the rules can be applied, as written, in the above scenario where they couldn't before.

CCP, it might be helpful (customer relations 101 ITT) if you didn't communicate with your playerbase by citing easily demonstrable lies as justification for a change. Wait, no, it's not a change. It's the same but it's not the same. I can't keep up.

I'm not even against those guys getting banned, I'm just violently against you lying and saying you're not changing the wording so it will apply in more situations, when that is exactly why you've done it.



IF that's the only indication of a preset "yes you can" or "no you can't", can we get a link or a citation as to what happened? (I want to discern details out of what can normally happen in Eve everyday versus getting banned =/)

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#137 - 2013-09-10 21:56:28 UTC
Aryth wrote:
I am waiting for DUST to die already so at least they are only paying attention to 2 games, not three.


The sad thing is that it would take someone with an understanding of the issue and basic competence with english a few hours at most to clearly lay out the basic rule. All this talk about how "we can't make a perfect rule" and "don't want to get into a protracted discussion of endless hypotheticals" is a little ridiculous considering how little effort is really involved here.

I'll pay the fiftyish bucks wages so one guy can just spend two hours writing something better. Mail me an invoice.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#138 - 2013-09-10 21:58:28 UTC
Ganque wrote:

So some idiot was dumb enough to let someone into his corp that claimed to be an alt of one of his members without taking the very minimal precaution of checking this postulated fact, then took the time and trouble to petition his own stupidity and somehow got a positive result from the GMs, thus reinforcing his know nothing not my responsibilty attitude, and somehow setting a precedent on the matter Shocked


.... the last time I had an alt put into corp I had to verify that it's my alt on the in-corp character to the directors... and they already had the full API for both accounts from my initial app...

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38

Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#139 - 2013-09-10 21:58:34 UTC
Carmaine wrote:
Hello everyone, my name is Carmaine of The Awesome Corp and I would like to announce to everyone in this thread that I have started the EVE Player™ group as well as the carebear™, pirate™ and pvper™ groups!


Please stop impersonating that you are awesome. You cause no awe.
Laurici
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2013-09-10 21:59:20 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Ali Aras wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
If I apply to an NC. corp claiming to be Vince Draken's cyno alt, am accepted, then go on a wild Awoxing spree, then again by the newly presented wording I've breached the TOS.

Is this your intention?

It's my understanding that this was already (recently) banned by TOS or impersonation policy somewhere.


Apparently you've become the new Hans Jagerblitzen ... apologizing on behalf of CCP for things you're not familiar with. This might be a case of improper impersonation. :)

The situation described was never illegal, unless the person named their character in such a way to pose as an alt. For instance, real alts name is leo (lowercase L) and the faker named a character as Ieo (uppercase i). This was covered in the NAMING POLICY and was bannable.

The act of just stating that you're an alt of someone (with no naming violations) was not against the TOS previously.

Previously, if I wanted to fly around (as Poetic) and claim that I was an Ali Aras alt, and scam ISK out of people for some purpose (perhaps campaign finances), I could do so freely. Now, according to the TOS, I will be banned for doing so.

The TOS changes are there to protect really stupid people, apparently. People incapable of doing a Google search, or sending an EVEmail to Ali Aras to confirm.


"It's my understanding that..." isn't "apologizing" or "defending" CCP. I'd say stop being an idiot, but you're incapable of it.


Care to make a more meaningful contribution after the GMs response than "Poetic, you're wrong"?