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New Ship Idea. Battleship Class Carrier
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Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#61 - 2013-09-09 10:02:11 UTC
Looks nice, but is still only a glorified drone boat... carriers are carriers because they field fighters/fighter bombers... everything less is not a carrier.

...my opinion, at least.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Commander IceQ
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#62 - 2013-09-09 13:01:16 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
...Besides: CCP moved away from ships fielding 10 or even 15 drones at a time for a reason...

And that reason was? Server could not handle it. Now the server can handle 2k man fleets with at least 2k drones/fighters going at it.

Sorry this argument is a bit tired. I still feel that 5 drones on a "Drone boat" is a bit underwhelming. The name conjures up the image of hundreds of drones... but even I would not support that. 10... MAYBE 15 (with penalties) would be acceptable.

What a lot of people here tend to miss is that the OP says that you can ONLY fit drones. No Turrets or launchers. So if they kill your drones your pretty much fingered. As for AFK ratting... the belt and mission rats now have sleeper AI, they swap to drones... I have lost many a drones on my rattler by not paying attention to their bars.

All skills 5, I get 813 dps (4 DDA2 and LSDA2 rig) on a Rattlesnake. That is with a hull with a damage bonus. will be even less with one without. So considering that, if this hull can get 1k dps with drones it will be much loved in any fleet that uses drones. (Null fleets, mission runners, incursions etc).

Kahega Amielden wrote:
Because then the hull in question would just completely invalidate any kind of frigate presence?

Why? Destroyers are anti frigate ships... don't they "completely invalidate any kind of frigate presence" as well? and can't the same be said for cruisers? That they "completely invalidate any kind of destroyer presence"? (I can go on but you get my drift) If you are referring to PVP gate cams or small gangs... I would take a tackle frig over drones any day. A player can respond and change to the situation faster than drones. I would also not support Scram drones, Web drones are useless.. so don't really understand your concern.

Smart Bombs... that is how you counter this... so there is a counter.

I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#63 - 2013-09-09 13:54:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:

And that reason was? Server could not handle it. Now the server can handle 2k man fleets with at least 2k drones/fighters going at it.



That wasn't me you're quoting.

Quote:
Why? Destroyers are anti frigate ships... don't they "completely invalidate any kind of frigate presence" as well? and can't the same be said for cruisers? That they "completely invalidate any kind of destroyer presence"? (I can go on but you get my drift) If you are referring to PVP gate cams or small gangs... I would take a tackle frig over drones any day. A player can respond and change to the situation faster than drones. I would also not support Scram drones, Web drones are useless.. so don't really understand your concern.

Smart Bombs... that is how you counter this... so there is a counter.


Destroyers have barely more tank than a frigate and on the order of double the damage. This comes at the cost of being very vulnerable to cruisers+.

Cruisers can't apply their full DPS to a frigate-sized target, and they rarely have more than 30-35k ehp in tank.

A battleship has EHP in the hundreds of thousands range. Let's do some quick math. Assume 15x hobgoblin IIs and 3 DDAs + a 50% drone damage bonus like all other droneships. You get...

20 (base) * 50% (hull bonus) * 66% (from DDAs) = 747. 747 DPS that cannot be mitigated by speed or sig.

I don't mean "invalidate frigates" as in it would perform the role of a frigate better... I mean it would invalidate frigates because any frigate on the same grid as this hypothetical ship would die, instantly.



Quote:
Sorry this argument is a bit tired. I still feel that 5 drones on a "Drone boat" is a bit underwhelming. The name conjures up the image of hundreds of drones... but even I would not support that. 10... MAYBE 15 (with penalties) would be acceptable.


Then argue for nerfing drone stats and boosting their numbers, or changing drone interfacing to allow one extra drone per level like it used to, or something. There are ways to get moar drones without making stupidly-overpowered ships.
Commander IceQ
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2013-09-09 19:26:56 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:

That wasn't me you're quoting.


edit fail my apologies. :)

I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.
MBizon Osis
Doomheim
#65 - 2013-09-09 19:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: MBizon Osis
The fact that subcaps in eve have run up to 15 drones at once in the past ( G-V can still have 10 out) is something to revisit in the test server. Simple limits would keep it set at no more than 5 heavy or sentry or 10 med scout or 15 lights deployed from the same ship at one time. CCP will never go for it. But it makes no sense that the ship that can deploy 125 Mbit/s of drones has a cap of 5 of all types out at any one time? Most of the Ewar type are stacking pened any how.

Were drones weaker back in the day? Seems to me that having domis, n.vexors and other drone boats a base 475 dps from 5 heavy or sentry drones or 10 med scout drones or 16 (takes 16 to get 475 dps) light scout drones worth wile to test on Singularity. What is there to lose? DPS wise a domi is no more powerful with 16 light scouts than it is with 5 heavy or sentry drones. In fact it's kind of bs now that I am thinking about it. And don't give me the it invalidates the player frig, a single frig should go pop vs a bs.
What is the equivalent light drone to average player frig eph and dps any how. Perhaps these need to be looked at too. Drones are not that hard to kill at all.
PS. add a mining drone bonus they have to be multipurpose after all. )
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#66 - 2013-09-09 19:39:02 UTC
Quote:
What is there to lose? DPS wise a domi is no more powerful with 16 light scouts than it is with 5 heavy or sentry drones.


Yes it is. 5 heavies cannot apply that DPS to things smaller than battlecruisers, whereas 16 light scouts totally can. That is the problem.
MBizon Osis
Doomheim
#67 - 2013-09-09 20:08:31 UTC  |  Edited by: MBizon Osis
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
What is there to lose? DPS wise a domi is no more powerful with 16 light scouts than it is with 5 heavy or sentry drones.


Yes it is. 5 heavies cannot apply that DPS to things smaller than battlecruisers, whereas 16 light scouts totally can. That is the problem.



OK 15 light scout limit. I can live with that.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#68 - 2013-09-09 20:15:34 UTC
Quote:
And don't give me the it invalidates the player frig, a single frig should go pop vs a bs.


Do you support massive increases to large gun tracking so that turret-based battleships can properly one-volley frigates?
MBizon Osis
Doomheim
#69 - 2013-09-09 20:28:38 UTC  |  Edited by: MBizon Osis
Polux
"Here is a quik reminder. The Drones where made by the Gallentians to counter the small agile frigets of the Caldari. They are in this game to make frigates feel pain"


I am looking up the drone reduction back in 2004 and it looks like ccp buffed the dps as they reduced total numbers. Researching now any links anyone? There must have been a lot of tears.


Steppa 2006.05.12
"I'm a drone-***** and proud of it. I flew the Ishtar since HAC's were introduced into Eve and had a BLAST flying 15 heavy tech 2 drones. I pine for those days, even though I admit the drones are stronger and faster now. I'm not sure if it was a straight 3-for-1 trade, but they definitely do more damage than the did."
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#70 - 2013-09-09 20:50:25 UTC
Ele Rebellion wrote:
Even with 15 drones it would still fall behind the Pirate Faction ships in DPS... thinking the Vindicator is 8 T2 hybrids with 37.5 (3/8) bonus... plus has 125MBit/sec. .. (Thats like having 11T2 Blasters with 5 Drones...)

What would be the point then? You want to fly a gimped-out-of-the-box ship? You realize that with more drones, you'd lose the drone hp and damage bonuses you normally get with drone ships? You really want a weak medium smartbomb or a single bomb to take out all your dps so you can have "a mini carrier" that serves no purpose not already well served by ships currently in the game?

Ele Rebellion wrote:
If CCP is giong to give us a mini-dread (without the damage bonus) why can't we have Mini-Carriers without damage bonuses.
FFS do you even know what a dread is for? HIGH DAMAGE. Having a module that improves tank does not a dread (or, shudder, a mini-dread) make.

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Kirluin
#71 - 2013-09-10 03:51:40 UTC
I know drones in general are on the table for a revamp eventually, but I would like to see a new t2 drone based battleship, only with a set of bonuses that are not the usual +hp +damage to give it that specialist flavor t2 is supposed to have.

funky stuff like massive drone control range plus big drone MWD speed boosts across all sizes (surprise the dude camping at 120km!) Or +drone energy drain / web amounts (to the point they're useful and have to be respected when this ship is on the field). could be very cool on a black ops support BS.

just riffing here but maybe +30% drone hp/level but no damage bonus. A +target painter drone bonus on a missile ship. etc.

I think there's room for droneboat specialization at the battleship level.
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
Man I Love Flying Spaceships
#72 - 2013-09-10 05:58:11 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Ele Rebellion wrote:
Even with 15 drones it would still fall behind the Pirate Faction ships in DPS... thinking the Vindicator is 8 T2 hybrids with 37.5 (3/8) bonus... plus has 125MBit/sec. .. (Thats like having 11T2 Blasters with 5 Drones...)

What would be the point then? You want to fly a gimped-out-of-the-box ship? You realize that with more drones, you'd lose the drone hp and damage bonuses you normally get with drone ships? You really want a weak medium smartbomb or a single bomb to take out all your dps so you can have "a mini carrier" that serves no purpose not already well served by ships currently in the game?

Ele Rebellion wrote:
If CCP is giong to give us a mini-dread (without the damage bonus) why can't we have Mini-Carriers without damage bonuses.
FFS do you even know what a dread is for? HIGH DAMAGE. Having a module that improves tank does not a dread (or, shudder, a mini-dread) make.


To that first area. About not putting out as much DPS as a Pirate Faction BS. It is my understanding that CCP doesn't want any T2 Batteships to be able to out DPS the pirate faction. (Since pirate faction is generally considered "better than T2" while T2 is more specialized.) Also the way you state your questions about the DPS and drone survivability as if I should be asking for a ship that is overpowered. Which I'm not going to ask for. Every ship should be balanced. That means it should have strengths and weaknesses.

To the second part. Yes I'm well aware of the purpose of a dread. I'm also aware that the upcoming Bastion Module provides many similarities to the dreads Siege Module, and for that reason many people are using the term "mini-dread" and I chose to use the term as well.
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
Man I Love Flying Spaceships
#73 - 2013-09-10 06:09:54 UTC
Also I'm not looking for 5large or 10medium or 15small.. I'm looking for 10 of any size.

As for being a ship that just insta-pops any frigate on the field. I don't believe that would be the case. While the DPS output of drones would be high. Remember that Large Combat Drones really can't hit anything smaller than a battlecruiser very well. So smaller drones have to be used on smaller ships which reduces the DPS output.

Also note that it takes quite some time for a BS to lock a frigate. Unless the drones were already in space (thus auto engaging the aggressor) the pilot would have to first lock the frigate and order drones to attack.. In null sec it would be unlikely for the drones to be already in space. (as a Stealth bomber pilot I would have fun dropping a bomb on anyone that had 5-10M isk worth of drones just flying around asking for it)
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#74 - 2013-09-10 08:23:07 UTC
Awesome idea, except I think if they make T2 battleships like that they prob still gonna have to stick to 5 drones.
Unless they make them some kind of battleship capital hybrid ship..
But Imo they should make them battleship sized versions of guardian , basilisk , scimitar and oneiros.
Give them same kind of bonuses but well you get 90 km Rep range instead of 71 km and maybe help them with their speed or tank so they can be in large fleet fights without being alphaed so hard :)

Imo there is a few gaps in the ship classes where CCP could fill in with missing ship classes like this,
You got frig logi, criser logi ,t2 cruiser logi, t3 cruiser RR logi subsystem. and capital but no battleship logi..

Imo there should be more than 2 ships to unlock when you trained battleships 5.
currently after battleship 5 you have alot less options to choose from compared to when unlocking frigates 5 or cruiser 5 in what to train for.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2013-09-10 11:57:07 UTC
The basic problem is that we already effectively have small carriers in combat terms, in the form of the drone battleships (Domi, Navy Domi, Rattlesnake). A Dominix is capable of 700+ DPS from heavy drones, or half that with mediums (and the Domi's mediums will get to apply almost all that to frigates). Thus a ten drone 'carrier', as has been suggested, will do 1400 DPS just from drones, or 1050 DPS from drones if it has no hull bonus to drone DPS. If the former, it beats out pirate battleships, and presumably as a 'carrier' it will have other uses, such as RR, or fitting services. If the latter, it's still a damned good battleship with a ton of other utility. Now, if it has no special 'carrier' there is simply no point to it - it's either a drone BS that has more drones, each with a lower DPS, or a drone BS that out-DPSes all non-capitals.

In summary, I cannot see a reason for such a ship beyond "I want something OP that does drones".
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#76 - 2013-09-10 12:32:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
The basic problem is that we already effectively have small carriers in combat terms, in the form of the drone battleships (Domi, Navy Domi, Rattlesnake). A Dominix is capable of 700+ DPS from heavy drones, or half that with mediums (and the Domi's mediums will get to apply almost all that to frigates). Thus a ten drone 'carrier', as has been suggested, will do 1400 DPS just from drones, or 1050 DPS from drones if it has no hull bonus to drone DPS. If the former, it beats out pirate battleships, and presumably as a 'carrier' it will have other uses, such as RR, or fitting services. If the latter, it's still a damned good battleship with a ton of other utility. Now, if it has no special 'carrier' there is simply no point to it - it's either a drone BS that has more drones, each with a lower DPS, or a drone BS that out-DPSes all non-capitals.

In summary, I cannot see a reason for such a ship beyond "I want something OP that does drones".
How about a T2 domi without drone bonuses but instead 1 extra drone per T2 level a bonus to remote armour repair and a 5k/m fleet hanger for extra ammo, cap boosters etc for the fleet when on a gate camp or roam that is not near your home systems. Not OP dps but could fill a valuable role.
I'm not good with math, how much dps would 10 unbonused ogre 2's put out and would that dps be out of line with training a T2 battleship to level 5?

My opinions are mine.

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Infiltrator2112
Untitled Goose Corporation
#77 - 2013-09-10 12:40:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Infiltrator2112
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
from what I'm learning it seems like carriers have very limited use themselves. Outside of triage they dont really do very much. You'll probably find that fighters are a suboptimal thing to use for combat.


Obvious Troll/10


Regarding the topic: The costs of a Battleship are ways too low to justify any extra Drones or an improved RR-Capability. And if you increase the price of the ship to T2-BS level, the option of bringing a Carrier wich is cheaper, more versatile and can use a jump-drive will make the ship you propose obsolete.
The Dominix is already as "drone-y" as possible without f*cking up the balance.
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#78 - 2013-09-10 12:52:37 UTC
Use a Dominix.

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
Jove Death
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2013-09-10 13:48:59 UTC
Use a domi

Save up

Buy a guardian vexor which still actually can run 10 drones.

Oh however they do cost more than 80 bill ish to buy if somebody wants to sell you one. aaannddd youll prob get blown to peices as soon as you undock.

But hey you still had one right Big smile

Quoting "you will die" in EvE is fail Chars dont die in EvE. Unless you have a heart attack eek.
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
Man I Love Flying Spaceships
#80 - 2013-09-11 07:23:51 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
The basic problem is that we already effectively have small carriers in combat terms, in the form of the drone battleships (Domi, Navy Domi, Rattlesnake). A Dominix is capable of 700+ DPS from heavy drones, or half that with mediums (and the Domi's mediums will get to apply almost all that to frigates). Thus a ten drone 'carrier', as has been suggested, will do 1400 DPS just from drones, or 1050 DPS from drones if it has no hull bonus to drone DPS. If the former, it beats out pirate battleships, and presumably as a 'carrier' it will have other uses, such as RR, or fitting services. If the latter, it's still a damned good battleship with a ton of other utility. Now, if it has no special 'carrier' there is simply no point to it - it's either a drone BS that has more drones, each with a lower DPS, or a drone BS that out-DPSes all non-capitals.

In summary, I cannot see a reason for such a ship beyond "I want something OP that does drones".


If you check the specs I came up with at the end of Page3 I only came up with a small DPS bonus. Which when combined with 2x DDA2s and all level 5 skills should be 1099DPS according EFT and my math. Take the 3.5%bonus per level out and you get 936dps with 2x DDA2s (according to EFT)

Now that could be considered OP, especially on a logi ship, so.. would it still be OP if the drone limit was instead 5, but had a role bonus to allow Drone Conrol Units to be fitted, which means that you could have up to 10 by using up 5 of your high slots.

@ Jove Death - Please read through the pages. You will see that what I suggest is not really comparable to a Domi. And sure I'll buy a Guardian Vexor.. even undock it.. just as soon as you deposit the 80B in my account.

@ MisterNick - Please read through the pages.

@ Infiltrator2112 - I disagree. Carriers are still slightly more expensive than T2-BS and generally cost more to fit. Carriers cannot travel through High Sec, and take about a year to train properly. Also, If factional hulls are better than T1 hulls, then by your reasoning I shouldn't be seeing those T1 hulls anywhere, but yet I see them everywhere.

@ Janeway84 - One of the ideas that has been running through my head to help make sure this suggested hull remains balanced is a 5 drone limit, but as a role bonus it can use Drone Control Units.

I'm really trying to work the numbers out so that this would be a balanced ship. I would love to see it brought into the game, which is why I've been listening to the feedback and making changes as needed.
Course would be nice to hear from some Devs as to their thoughts.