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More immunity for Incursion Runners Required.

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Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#81 - 2011-11-14 17:30:47 UTC
SilentSkills wrote:
I don't understand why suicide blackbird is a problem atm. Incursion runners usually have several med-range dps ships that can dish out serious damage. If **** hits the fan just kill the blackbird, it would take3-5 volleys from the wholefleet? probably less.

The way I see it:

-blackbird jumps in - everyone gets ready to alpha kill it if it GCCs
-blackbird jumps in and mwd away - everyone fits long range ammo and chases the BB
-blackbird brings 2 more blackbirds - align out of the incursion, kill scramblers, and get ready to alpha the BBs.

Why is this so hard?



The ECM jam lasts through the destruction of the ship is the issue.
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2011-11-14 17:35:43 UTC
I support this product or service.
Johnny Punisher
Paronit
#83 - 2011-11-14 17:43:47 UTC
I agree with ccp/carebears that you should always get a reminder if you are about to aid/aggro/gcc/canflip in highsec/lowsec unless you already have a previous timer running.

Btw the blackbird/griffin suicide gank trick is genious! Good work. I hate the plex prices also Pirate
Zackgar
Lead Farmers
#84 - 2011-11-14 17:48:05 UTC
Were just doing our bit to keep incursions in line with the risk/reward of other activities Pirate
Lyubov Petrovskaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2011-11-14 17:53:08 UTC
Just wanted to chime and say, I have no issue with the actual suicide ganking as I'm not an idiot that buys faction BS's and officer fits them just to e-peen - so long may it continue. However, there is something broken here which is the recycling of alts/accounts which is clearly against CCP policy.

Long may our honest non-exploiting outlaws continue their tear inducing ways, for they make EvE what it is - but the recycling of accounts/characters kind of puts the ones doing that into the realm of "no consequences" which looks a bit hypocritical given that this is what they seem to be complaining about re: the incursion bears.

I've included a wall of quoted text below if you want to delve into my reasoning, correct me, etc. - I know some of the quotes are old, but I just resubbed a few weeks ago after about a year off - sorry if i missed a policy change.

Emphasis is mine in all cases.


From Andy Kusoni:
Quote:
For those of you who would like to do this yourself, here's how. If you want to do it on an alt, its less than a week with a new character into caldari cruiser 4, electronic warfare 3. A bit more if you want engineering 5 and thermodynamics to overload your jammers.



From GM Homonoia:
Quote:
The loophole that was plugged recently fixed a tactic that gave no warning AND had NO consequence. EVE doesn't do 'no consequences' (or close to it anyway). This tactic has plenty consequences, namely CONCORDdokken + standings/security hits.



From GM Nova:
Quote:
Posted - 2011.07.08 16:37:00 - [37]

In order to prevent players from taking actions that might get them into trouble I'd like to address this issue. What is being discussed here is an exploit clear and simple. Lead GM Grimmi has already addressed this matter Here

Quote:
Originally by: GM GrimmiHi everybody,

Our stance towards recycling "disposable alts" for purposes such as suicide ganking or summoning CONCORD for bodyguard duty is that it is an exploit, clear and simple. Using "disposable ships" is not seen as an exploit since all ships ARE disposable, when properly insured.

Exploits are the abuse of game mechanics in ways that were not intended or foreseen in order to gain unfair advantages over others. CCP has to date made arrangements to fix such issues as fast as possible. This, however, takes time and resources to sort out and the proper and perfectly logical solution is to prohibit whatever abuse of game mechanics in question until said issue is fixed.

While some unintended uses of game mechanics may not be classed as exploits they may still be subject to re-design or tuning and we assure you that CCP is working hard on fixing problems with game mechanics as deemed appropriate.

That is really the only straight answer we are able to give you guys on the contents of this thread at this time. There are so many possible scenarios and cases must be evaluated and handled on an individual basis and we simply have to deal with problems as they crop up. The petition system is the way to go about reporting possible issues that may require GM/dev attention so please be sure to file a petition if you think there is a problem. We will then investigate the issue and take the appropriate action.




The matter cannot be more clear and let me assure you this is very much enforceable. Please be sure to adhere to our rules and policies.

Yours,
GM Nova



From CCP Fallout:

Quote:
Posted - 2011.05.23 16:45:00 - [1]

The following comes from our Customer Support Department:

Abusing the Buddy System is considered an exploit and will not be tolerated. Incidents will be handled on a case by case basis and action taken may include bans for all accounts involved and/or confiscation of ISK and items.

Abuse includes, but is not limited to: farming gifts, making throw-away alts for grief-play purposes.
Poloturion
Genco Pura Olive Oil Company.
#86 - 2011-11-14 17:58:16 UTC
Who said anything about throwing the characters away? Are you against the use of free character slots for amusing purposes?

Also, please fix POS.
Andy Kusoni
Lead Farmers
#87 - 2011-11-14 18:01:22 UTC
I do not support using throwaway alts. I was suggesting a way for players who run incursions with their main characters to have some fun without being blacklisted from the main incursion channels.
Jovan Geldon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2011-11-14 18:06:26 UTC
Greifing on my main all day erry day
E man Industries
SeaChell Productions
#89 - 2011-11-14 18:12:17 UTC
Apollo Gabriel wrote:

The ECM jam lasts through the destruction of the ship is the issue.

This seems to be the bigger problem.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#90 - 2011-11-14 18:23:12 UTC
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
Ok I want to make sure I get what is happening here:


Incursion Fleets have several ships with buffer tanks being constantly RR by logi ships.

Does the Sansha AI shoot the logi ships? If yes are they constantly RR each other?

Then a player shows up and jams the Logi ships (or tries to as it is chance based) and then the hole spider web collapses?


On a separate note:
My issue with Suicide Ganks in general is the only way to really deal with them is to leave the area, as you can't premptively shoot them. It's like having a guy on your front lawn with a gun pointed at your kids and you can't do anything cause the cops will come shoot you if you try to stop him shooting your kids. While I know many people would ***** about it, if the Sansha are running mad, it should be a 0.4 system ... but then no one would do them right?



Sansha have sleeper AI. They switch aggro constantly. No one is safe (except pods).
There's lots of stuff you can do as preemptive measurements to counter ECM suicide ganks.
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#91 - 2011-11-14 18:33:53 UTC
Lyubov Petrovskaya wrote:
Just wanted to chime and say, I have no issue with the actual suicide ganking as I'm not an idiot that buys faction BS's and officer fits them just to e-peen - so long may it continue. However, there is something broken here which is the recycling of alts/accounts which is clearly against CCP policy.

Long may our honest non-exploiting outlaws continue their tear inducing ways, for they make EvE what it is - but the recycling of accounts/characters kind of puts the ones doing that into the realm of "no consequences" which looks a bit hypocritical given that this is what they seem to be complaining about re: the incursion bears.

I've included a wall of quoted text below if you want to delve into my reasoning, correct me, etc. - I know some of the quotes are old, but I just resubbed a few weeks ago after about a year off - sorry if i missed a policy change.

Emphasis is mine in all cases.


From Andy Kusoni:
Quote:
For those of you who would like to do this yourself, here's how. If you want to do it on an alt, its less than a week with a new character into caldari cruiser 4, electronic warfare 3. A bit more if you want engineering 5 and thermodynamics to overload your jammers.



From GM Homonoia:
Quote:
The loophole that was plugged recently fixed a tactic that gave no warning AND had NO consequence. EVE doesn't do 'no consequences' (or close to it anyway). This tactic has plenty consequences, namely CONCORDdokken + standings/security hits.



From GM Nova:
Quote:
Posted - 2011.07.08 16:37:00 - [37]

In order to prevent players from taking actions that might get them into trouble I'd like to address this issue. What is being discussed here is an exploit clear and simple. Lead GM Grimmi has already addressed this matter Here

[quote] Originally by: GM GrimmiHi everybody,

Our stance towards recycling "disposable alts" for purposes such as suicide ganking or summoning CONCORD for bodyguard duty is that it is an exploit, clear and simple. Using "disposable ships" is not seen as an exploit since all ships ARE disposable, when properly insured.

Exploits are the abuse of game mechanics in ways that were not intended or foreseen in order to gain unfair advantages over others. CCP has to date made arrangements to fix such issues as fast as possible. This, however, takes time and resources to sort out and the proper and perfectly logical solution is to prohibit whatever abuse of game mechanics in question until said issue is fixed.

While some unintended uses of game mechanics may not be classed as exploits they may still be subject to re-design or tuning and we assure you that CCP is working hard on fixing problems with game mechanics as deemed appropriate.

That is really the only straight answer we are able to give you guys on the contents of this thread at this time. There are so many possible scenarios and cases must be evaluated and handled on an individual basis and we simply have to deal with problems as they crop up. The petition system is the way to go about reporting possible issues that may require GM/dev attention so please be sure to file a petition if you think there is a problem. We will then investigate the issue and take the appropriate action.




The matter cannot be more clear and let me assure you this is very much enforceable. Please be sure to adhere to our rules and policies.

Yours,
GM Nova



From CCP Fallout:

"Posted - 2011.05.23 16:45:00 - [1]

The following comes from our Customer Support Department:

Abusing the Buddy System is considered an exploit and will not be tolerated. Incidents will be handled on a case by case basis and action taken may include bans for all accounts involved and/or confiscation of ISK and items.

Abuse includes, but is not limited to: farming gifts, making throw-away alts for grief-play purposes."

Theres also no way to report them lol which is what makes this all just damn funny


"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Johnny Punisher
Paronit
#92 - 2011-11-14 18:36:14 UTC
E man Industries wrote:
Apollo Gabriel wrote:

The ECM jam lasts through the destruction of the ship is the issue.

This seems to be the bigger problem.


If you jam someone and warp out/lose lock before the 20s cycle ends, does he still stay jammed? If it works like that (not sure, I think it does) then it should work even if the blackbird gets destroyed. Same thing with the ecm burst.

I think it like this: it takes 20s for the ships targeting system to recover from the jamming and to be able to lock again.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2011-11-14 18:54:43 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
The fact you have reimbursed some of these losses is a terrible indictment of the current state of the game.

That is seriously FUC*ED up if CCP reimbursed losses from this tactic. I guess kicking and screaming and threatening to quit (which they would not) has CCP acting irrationally.
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#94 - 2011-11-14 18:56:08 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
The fact you have reimbursed some of these losses is a terrible indictment of the current state of the game.

That is seriously FUC*ED up if CCP reimbursed losses from this tactic. I guess kicking and screaming and threatening to quit (which they would not) has CCP acting irrationally.



Can anyone provide details here please.

Are you saying that Suicide Jamming losses have been replaced? That's wrong IF it happened.

Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Sedilis
Lead Farmers
#95 - 2011-11-14 19:02:50 UTC
Confirming I will not be recycling my 60M sp main because of the sec hit. I guess I'll just kill some rats... and then go back to killing LogiTwisted
Lyubov Petrovskaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2011-11-14 19:30:43 UTC
Poluturion:
Quote:
Who said anything about throwing the characters away? Are you against the use of free character slots for amusing purposes?


Nope, not at all.

Andy Kusoni:
Quote:
I do not support using throwaway alts. I was suggesting a way for players who run incursions with their main characters to have some fun without being blacklisted from the main incursion channels.


Jovan Geldon:
Quote:
Greifing on my main all day erry day


Sedilis:
Quote:
Confirming I will not be recycling my 60M sp main because of the sec hit. I guess I'll just kill some rats... and then go back to killing Logi


Good stuff, like I said in my OP, fair play to you guys.

Kengutsi Akira:
Quote:
Theres also no way to report them lol which is what makes this all just damn funny


Actually, you can report them by filing a petition. If you are suicide ganked by a number of characters with same/very similar birth dates or who are all NPC corp'ed or all joined a player corp on the same/very similar date it would probably be worth filing a petition.

If it is just an unlucky coincidence for you that is too bad, but obviously there is a pattern to this sort of thing and who knows, CCP might ban a paying/plex'ed account once ina blue moon. Certainly can't hurt to try.
Zackgar
Lead Farmers
#97 - 2011-11-14 19:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Zackgar
AFAIK, creating alt to suicide gank, getting to -5 then biomassing them to create a new alt to take to -5 to then biomass them is not ok. Creating an alt to do this on is ok.

Also im fairly sure that suicide ganking isnt considered grief play *when alt recycling isnt happening*. Its a valid tactic as stated above.... Stop whining about it...
Lyubov Petrovskaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2011-11-14 19:46:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyubov Petrovskaya
Zackgar wrote:
AFAIK, creating alt to suicide gank, getting to -5 then biomassing them to create a new alt to take to -5 to then biomass them is not ok. Creating an alt to do this on is ok.


Do you even read? Learn how to take someone agreeing with you without getting all defensive. Roll

Also, on your second point:

Quote:
Originally by: GM GrimmiHi everybody,
Our stance towards recycling "disposable alts" for purposes such as suicide ganking or summoning CONCORD for bodyguard duty is that it is an exploit, clear and simple.


You're totally correct that starting a buddy account and suicide ganking on it isn't grief play. However, if you PLEX it for one month of training, suicide to -5 and then throw away the account, then create a new one for the same purpose it is.

@Zackgar: Nice ninja edit. Seems we're in complete agreement, so why don't you quit whining about someone bringing up a legitimate concerns regarding an exploit?
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#99 - 2011-11-14 19:56:25 UTC
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
The fact you have reimbursed some of these losses is a terrible indictment of the current state of the game.

That is seriously FUC*ED up if CCP reimbursed losses from this tactic. I guess kicking and screaming and threatening to quit (which they would not) has CCP acting irrationally.



Can anyone provide details here please.

Are you saying that Suicide Jamming losses have been replaced? That's wrong IF it happened.


The issue, is that despite it NOT being ever declared an exploit AND it being "working as intended" there have been reimbursements for losses to ships in Incursions that were ganked using the can flip aggro trick.

Or rather, I have heard a LOT of people say they have been reimbursed (including an IRL friend) who I have no reason to believe were lying.

Which is ****** up. Reimbursing losses to people who were the victim of an exploit is one thing, but this was NOT declared an exploit. It was declared a "game mechanics change" which semantically suggests the (valid) game mechanics were one way, and are now another.

What I expect, is that CCP will be consistent in this, and remove supercaps from players who escaped the fight with less than 20% of their EHP left, because apparently you now backdate all changes to game mechanics.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Feilamya
#100 - 2011-11-14 20:02:06 UTC
Once again, highsec itself is the problem.

A blackbird has no business in a PVE environment such as incursions. For your own safety, you would normally shoot it on sight.

Unfortunately you can't do this in highsec, because you would be concordokkened for trying to defend yourself!

Therefore, CCP, make highsec SAFER!
REMOVE CONCORD!