Player Features and Ideas Discussion

On a server cycle time of 1 second twitch gaming really doesn't exist. It does allow you to send a large number of commands to the sever during a single second. So you can begin to relock all the targets you need in a single second. It isn't really a mini-game when you can complete it in less than a second.

I would be down with it starting to auto-relock the targets when the jam is up. That would be a quality of life improvement.


Yeah I follow. It doesn't get rid of a majority of the annoyances that are caused by ECM. Things like ECM bonused ships needing 4 mods to be effective, which causes them to be unable to tank. It doesn't change the fact that chance based still isn't a great mechanic. Another thing is Signal distortion amps only exist for ECM.

I think it would be a nice stop-gap measure until a better re-work can come around, but by no means a final solution.

Part of the complaint is that ECCM doesnt do anything while you're not being jammed, this is unlike any other ewar "defense" in the game. Tracking Computer/Enhancers help even if you're not being tracking disrupted, sensor boosters decrease your lock time even if youre not being sensor dampened why is ECCM a useless module?

Also as was said before, there needs to be a way to play around ECM like there is with every other type of e-war. The problem with ECM is that you might as well walk away from the computer when you're jammed because you have NOTHING TO DO. there should never be a part of the game where the game is functioning properly and you have nothing to do.


I can basically guarentee that I have more characters with more SP in ECM than you do because i believe it to be so overpowered; its just that I can put the good of the game ahead of my selfish desires.


I think you might be PvPing wrong bro . . . Why dont you go have a look at snuff box or rooks and kings then come back and tell me that PvP requires no skill . . .

Sure there are some ships that require more skill and some that require less, but no ship requires no skill unless youre doing it wrong.

Shields suck if you aren't the target. Unless you're being hit they are absolutely worthless.

ECM has falloff.

I have every ewar elite cert/skill level 5. The exception being the resistance ones that came in after I remapped out of int & mem. I spent the better part of two years mapped int & mem.

Before we argue semantics, define skill.

Random has every reason to be in this game and others. Without it the results are linear and can be predicted. Predictability in my opinion leads to stale gameplay.

I'm glad you've started "just thinking about the proposed change". Its the first step.

QFT.

From the OP: "ECM isn't overpowered, but it's not in line with other forms of Ewar."

WHAT?

yes, but there is no opportunity cost to having shields.


I have 4 dedicated ECM characters with perfect skills and caldari battleship 5 just for the scorpion; they are my cyno alts, like i said, im heavily invested in ECM . . . just saying.


Skill is the ability to analyze a situation and change tactics or gameplay in the midst of battle to increase your chances of winning or effectiveness in combat.


Starcraft is widely held as the best most competitive computer game in the world. It has no randomness by design because randomness can decide battles, and yet the myriad of strategies enabled by starcraft allow the gameplay not to become stale. Another example would be chess or Goe because there are nearly limitless possibilities.

Randomness is the opposite of skill; I need to know that every time my marine fires it does 6 damage, not 5-7 damage but exactly 6. Its one of the things that makes starcraft such a competitive game because I know that my un-upgraded marine will kill an un-upgraded zergling in exactly 6 hits every time, and a zergling with 1 armor in exactly 7 hits every time, otherwise im just clicking and praying.

Damage is universal; in every single encounter with your enemy you will either take damage or you will win. There are no matches that you should ever lose where you take no damage.

The same cannot be said for ECM, that coupled with the fact that ECCM provides none but the most fringe ancillary benefits and the fact that ECM is random are the crux of our problem here . . . but straw man arguments aside.


Look I dont care what you call it, randomness reduces the need for a person to be "good" at the game. You may be way better at the game than I am, but if I get lucky for no reason and get 3 jam cycles off in a row against you, ill probably win . . . so the game is now more based on luck . . . that makes for a non-competitive game.

Should I beat you because I just hit the jackpot on jam cycles? or would it be better to come up with a system where the outcome can be predicted and played around by the better player?


Ah but even in chess, you dont have randomness . . . in fact, including any random element would completely ruin the game of chess. The whole point of your argument is that you should be able to think ahead of your opponent, but you truly cant think ahead because you dont really know if his jam cycle is going to hit or not, and neither does he, its random!


Ok, clearly what I meant when i said that was in a game sense, nobody is "good" at rolling dice (well ok some people are but theyre cheating dice are supposed to be random)

Say we make a game were the first person to roll three 6s wins on a regular 6 sided die. There is no opportunity for me to get better at the game (unless I want to cheat and roll the die in my favor), I just keep rolling and hope I luck out before you do. That is what I mean when I say randomness is the opposite of skill. The amount of skill you need to play a game is inversely proportional to the amount of randomness it involves.

Lets look at your example of chess again . . . If I lose at chess, I am the one to blame because I was in complete control of everything that all of my pieces did throughout the whole game.

Now lets look at another example of a strategic game, Risk . . . I can, and have before, lost at risk due to no fault of my own with no way to prevent it. I once had 30 men stationed on brazil, my enemy attacked me with a paltry force of 15 men from north africa. Statistics says I that should have been a rout in my favor and yet I lost through no fault of my own because he rolled 5s and 6s for that entire attack.

Gotta take exception to this line here.

There are no elements more random than another player, and the lack of being able to predict how they will react.

This makes games possible, all the way from Rock/Paper/Scissors to chess.
There are zero unknown elements regarding these games, beyond how an individual player will use the elements when opposing another.

Yes, the battles would be predictable, but not to anyone involved with them as players.
Only a third party, with full awareness of all elements in play, would have a potential result.

And since the players are reacting to assumptions as well as facts about their opponents, any random element becomes meaningless if not actually diminishing to play quality.

What truly must be watched, is how some things limit options regarding what players can plan and deploy as moves.
That is the difference between Rock/Paper/Scissors and chess, the limits to what you can do.

The difference is that there are only three possible outcomes in PvP:

1. you win
2. you run away
3. you take damage

And in fact its usually 2 & 3 or 1 & 3 . . . You cannot say the same about ECM; if your opponent(s) dont fit damage theyre going to lose, so its reasonable to assume every person is fitting damage. It is not the same case with ECM.


So you're saying that chess is completely predictable? or starcraft? or Goe?

What I am saying is that randomness allows a worse player to beat a better player for no reason; not because he applied an unorthodox strategy, or because he came up with something new but simply because he got lucky.


As one of my friends always says "youre being intentionally dumb" you know exactly what I meant when i said that.


Uncontrolled is not the same as random, and good chess players never take random actions anyway; you can bait, feign, control and intimidate your opponent into taking certain actions


1. ECCM doesnt even provide good protection against ECM
2. ECCM still does nothing except protect you from ECM unlike any of the other ewar counter modules.
3. battles should not be decided before you undock, and ECM is not simply an advantage, its a battle decider on a small scale

We can go back and forth from now til the end of time. I'm not budging nor are you. We'll just have to agree to disagree.