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Do Level 4 missions pay too much compared to 1 through 3?

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1001 - 2013-09-08 18:39:48 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The last thing we want is concord in null. The people too afraid to lose their space pixels can stay in high sec but the ones willing to go out of high should be rewarded for doing so.

It's always about what you want, how you work together, how you manage your risk

Never about those who need safety without doing anything except being shot


Alas, your dream to be killed by concord in every system in EVE suffers another setback.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1002 - 2013-09-08 18:48:06 UTC
Not for long, general discussion will get us there

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1003 - 2013-09-08 18:58:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Houm... (60 x 9 x 4) + (60 x 2)= 2,280 million per month.

I'm not even close to that, thus I am a terribad mission runner and I shall better go do something else and stop embarrasing my kind. Cry
Nah. You're just someone who wouldn't really be affected by L4 missions having their high end adjusted to create a more sensible activity progression. Or maybe you're just sane enough not to spend 38 hours a month running missions… Blink


To achieve this, you need to crash the income from LP. Bounties and mission reward is the bread and butter of low skill player (not in-game SP driven skills but player skill) because they don't do the research for better LP ratios. Any other form of nerf will affect the income of the non optimizing player contrary to what your post suggest.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1004 - 2013-09-08 19:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
stoicfaux wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Would you like to know why the right answer isn't "buff nullsec"?

Inflation.

Inflation is very, very bad for the game in general...

Not necessarily.

edit: For clarity, buffing income doesn't necessarily cause inflation. Having something to spend the isk on would most likely increase inflation.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/price-indices-february-2012/
Quote:
Changes in the money supply dwarf the changes to prices. While the money supply grew more than thirteenfold, the CPI fell by almost a quarter. It‘s clear that these series aren‘t strongly correlated. The existence of money alone doesn‘t contribute much to inflation. Money that isn‘t being spent won‘t affect prices.


Now this is what I call data. Interesting. So growth in money supply doesn't seem to be causing inflation. There are still signs of that given minerals are at a year low.

There is probably an interesting phenomenon behind this such as that people just run out of things to spend money on the wealthier they get or there is a soft cap on how much money they can spend or people just like hoarding money and not spending it.

Suffice to say given the current economic situation is that money supply doesn't matter and that correcting that problem would be pointless because the data (at least from this blog and current mineral prices) shows that inflation is not a problem.

This quote is most likely the important point to gleam from the blog:

Quote:
Changes in the money supply dwarf the changes to prices. While the money supply grew more than thirteenfold, the CPI fell by almost a quarter. It‘s clear that these series aren‘t strongly correlated. The existence of money alone doesn‘t contribute much to inflation.


So I guess the question now is to ask is...

Why are we arguing for a reduction in money supply that CCP said themselves doesn't matter?

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1005 - 2013-09-08 19:34:48 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Willful ignorance again, you left out totally the nerfs to null sec and didn't read my last post at all.


Why, mad because CCP ran numbers for real (not those blathered on this thread) and found out null was to nerf as well?

Also, I apologize for not sitting all day spamming F5 to pick your last post(s), I have a life. I don't even recall what you have posted as last, and I am sure I'll live through that.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1006 - 2013-09-08 19:39:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

He salvaged+looted the missions with a single character. Even a maxed Noctis may take 10 to 20 minutes to salvage a wreck-rich mission.

Is blitzing more proficent? It depends. Salvaging reduces burning out and increases revenue per mission. Some loots are better than bounties themselves.

But then Dragon's point was not "let's make the ultimate fuckton of money to "prove" that L4s are oversize faucets". Roll



There's also this tiiiiiiiiiiny fact that I am so-surprised I am the only one to repeat Roll

Make 400M per hour by blitzing?

Guess what, LP farming (because blitzing is just that) is not an ISK faucet.

Therefore the EvE economy is not affected at all by it.

If LP farming is a crime, then so is trading and industry. Let's nerf everything because it makes some forum trolls happy, right?

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1007 - 2013-09-08 20:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
By the way, since here's people frothing at the mouth to kill the guy running a lol CNR at Motsu or some other newbie setup with the excuse it ruins the economy (how uninterested they are):

- The average guy does his missions and eventually salvages it. The average guy does not have 4 alts ready to take multiple missions without ever docking.

- The fully (read: not blitzed) top mission possible I have done, had ticks for 12M. Now do the math how much is it per hour.

- The given LP is not an ISK faucet, so it's irrelevant to the economy.

- The salvage is not an ISK faucet, so it's irrelevant to the economy too.

- The extra-tiny loot left is not an ISK faucet either. It's extra tiny because nerfed multiple times to stop it being a minerals faucet.

So what faucets are left to ruin the precious EvE economy? 1. 1 faucet which is well below the faucet generate by a guy farming PvE in null sec.

This easily explains why CCP (oh the outrage!) also nerfed null sec faucets.

So the hi sec faucet is < null sec faucet.
Hi sec LP has less value than pirate BPCs and similar.
Hi sec salvage is slightly worse than null sec's, comparing same faction rats).

So, what's the garments tearing and hairs pulling about?

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1008 - 2013-09-08 20:27:04 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Willful ignorance again, you left out totally the nerfs to null sec and didn't read my last post at all.


Why, mad because CCP ran numbers for real (not those blathered on this thread) and found out null was to nerf as well?

Also, I apologize for not sitting all day spamming F5 to pick your last post(s), I have a life. I don't even recall what you have posted as last, and I am sure I'll live through that.


I think its more mad and bitter about TM dot com refusing to publish a poorly written article fueling a grr goons engine. Said engine has had its tinfoil change as well so its running amazingly good.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1009 - 2013-09-08 20:35:37 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Willful ignorance again, you left out totally the nerfs to null sec and didn't read my last post at all.


Why, mad because CCP ran numbers for real (not those blathered on this thread) and found out null was to nerf as well?

Also, I apologize for not sitting all day spamming F5 to pick your last post(s), I have a life. I don't even recall what you have posted as last, and I am sure I'll live through that.


You can use real life or whatever you like for an excuse, but the truth is you're not honest enough to have a real discussion with.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1010 - 2013-09-08 20:40:00 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


So, what's the garments tearing and hairs pulling about?


This is not about isk inflation. Nothing you posted has anything to do with the imbalance in high sec income vs null and low income.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1011 - 2013-09-08 20:51:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


So, what's the garments tearing and hairs pulling about?


This is not about isk inflation. Nothing you posted has anything to do with the imbalance in high sec income vs null and low income.


Ok then consider one main branch of this tirade (the damage done to EvE economy) as debunked.

Because I do recall the excuse being brought up again and again.


As per the "income in hi sec vs null" debate, I am baffled that havily veteran players are unable to find something more profitable to do than beginner content in an area that is not even "unlocked" as full game.

It's like level 90 WoW players going on the forum complaining how level 10 newbies have their own SAFE training area where they can dig copper and kill boars with no risk of being ganked. Copper that used to sell for more than the high level minerals none the less (due to high demand).

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1012 - 2013-09-08 20:53:22 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Willful ignorance again, you left out totally the nerfs to null sec and didn't read my last post at all.


Why, mad because CCP ran numbers for real (not those blathered on this thread) and found out null was to nerf as well?

Also, I apologize for not sitting all day spamming F5 to pick your last post(s), I have a life. I don't even recall what you have posted as last, and I am sure I'll live through that.


You can use real life or whatever you like for an excuse, but the truth is you're not honest enough to have a real discussion with.


Why, you found someone who's somewhat harder to silence than other guys?

About the "honesty" please feel free to convince people you are more honest than me and take my job as 3rd party and collateral holder.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1013 - 2013-09-08 20:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

- The fully (read: not blitzed) top mission possible I have done, had ticks for 12M. Now do the math how much is it per hour.
- The given LP is not an ISK faucet, so it's irrelevant to the economy.
- The salvage is not an ISK faucet, so it's irrelevant to the economy too.
- The extra-tiny loot left is not an ISK faucet either. It's extra tiny because nerfed multiple times to stop it being a minerals faucet.

At 12M ticks, you're pulling in 36M in pure ISK per hour. Sonce you didn't blitz them, you probably had another 10:ish million in LP and about as much again in loot and salvage options depending on strategy.

The given LP is an ISK sink, so it's very important for both the economy and the activity ecology.

The salvage is a materials faucet, so it's very important for both the economy and the activity ecology.

The loot s another materials faucet, so it's very important for both the economy and the activity ecology too.

Quote:
So what faucets are left to ruin the precious EvE economy? 1. 1 faucet which is well below the faucet generate by a guy farming PvE in null sec.

You have a source for this, presumably?

Quote:
Ok then consider one main branch of this tirade (the damage done to EvE economy) as debunked.
You mean the main strawman, since it has only been brought up as a distortion of what people have actually been saying.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1014 - 2013-09-08 21:11:06 UTC
So if CCP says the money supply isn't damaging the economy, why is there is a question on the matter?

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Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#1015 - 2013-09-08 21:14:59 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
So I guess the question now is to ask is...

Why are we arguing for a reduction in money supply that CCP said themselves doesn't matter?


**

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
There's also this tiiiiiiiiiiny fact that I am so-surprised I am the only one to repeat Roll

Make 400M per hour by blitzing?

Guess what, LP farming (because blitzing is just that) is not an ISK faucet.

Therefore the EvE economy is not affected at all by it.

If LP farming is a crime, then so is trading and industry. Let's nerf everything because it makes some forum trolls happy, right?


The point isn't inflation (which I haven't seen argued ITT really) but the acquisition of personal wealth, because it's the latter which acts as personal incentive.

You know Vaerah, you could probably have a hit TV show of building giant [literal] strawmen and angrily attacking them (presumably with confused onlookers, as per this thread) with bats and burning torches, but I suggest you pitch it to a network and stop practising daily on Eve-O.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#1016 - 2013-09-08 21:15:49 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
So if CCP says the money supply isn't damaging the economy, why is there is a question on the matter?

There is, because it isn't.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1017 - 2013-09-08 21:17:00 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
So if CCP says the money supply isn't damaging the economy, why is there is a question on the matter?

Because people can't grasp the actual problems presented (multiple times on multiple occasions) so they have to replace it with a much more simplistic version that they can get their heads around.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1018 - 2013-09-08 21:23:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:

At 12M ticks, you're pulling in 36M in pure ISK per hour. Sonce you didn't blitz them, you probably had another 10:ish million in LP and about as much again in loot and salvage options depending on strategy.

The given LP is an ISK sink, so it's very important for both the economy and the activity ecology.

The salvage is a materials faucet, so it's very important for both the economy and the activity ecology.

The loot s another materials faucet, so it's very important for both the economy and the activity ecology too.

Quote:
So what faucets are left to ruin the precious EvE economy? 1. 1 faucet which is well below the faucet generate by a guy farming PvE in null sec.

You have a source for this, presumably?

Quote:
Ok then consider one main branch of this tirade (the damage done to EvE economy) as debunked.
You mean the main strawman, since it has only been brought up as a distortion of what people have actually been saying.


So, they are so desperate that have called out the big guns?

Let's see how quickly I'll get bored with this minigame.

12M a tick is the top mission I have found (done without blitzing). I get those ticks with a glass cannon "best in slot" faction + deadspace fitted ship, not exactly a fair term to the other missioneers.

As for the LP, I think (but I am not sure it's still valid now) it yielded a bit more than those 10M, but yelded much less as salvage (despite it's Angel) and loot is the post-nerf loot, that is quite bad meta mods that many times I don't bother to take.

I don't recall a particular intervention by The Doctor about a need to reduce salvage. Actually CCP rose demand when they made the smaller rigs available: suddenly all those unrigged frigs became affordable to pimp. I wish I had the market history for that (I only keep minerals, ices, PLEX and PI as they are my trading basket), there was some quite vibrant reaction to that patch.

As for LP, in 2009 we had 3.3k LP/ISK rare items, these days we still have rare 3.3k LP/ISK items. It's a very static exchange, the best LP/ISK corp changes over time but the net revenue did neither explode nor implode.

So, sure, salvage and LP are very important and... they are quite steady.

As for minerals, they are being affected by much stronger influences than meta reprocessing. For what I care CCP could remove meta loot tomorrow, it just clogs the Noctis and forces the use of more expanders in an handful of "many boats => mrore loot" missions. Those missions however are multi-room and have spawns scattered about, in the end it's a matter of time employed vs volume looted and many prefer saving on the "time employed" factor.
This expecially after the heavy removal of most high ends (meta + drone goo removal), it's now futile to loot to do industry.
I used to make a freighter (as in building) every 2-3 weeks of missioning, now it'd be pointless.

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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#1019 - 2013-09-08 21:29:01 UTC
If CCP says they are happy with the money supply then they must be happy with the amount of money paid into the system via mission rewards and bounties. After all if so much as one tiny aspect of the economy wasn't working to their expectations they would not be 'happy with the economy' and a nerf/rebalancing would be implemented somewhere or other. Wasn't null sec the last place on the map to be nerfed?

I know high sec has been nerfed a number of times in recent years, but so has null. The nerf hammer has fallen and presumably CCP are happy with the results thus there is clearly no need to nerf L4 missions.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1020 - 2013-09-08 21:37:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
So if CCP says the money supply isn't damaging the economy, why is there is a question on the matter?

Because people can't grasp the actual problems presented (multiple times on multiple occasions) so they have to replace it with a much more simplistic version that they can get their heads around.


So if its not the economy that is in question... Then what? Why is this an issue if the game economy is not the problem?

Can you put the issue into one sentence?

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