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The Null Sec Myth

First post
Author
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#61 - 2011-11-14 12:56:44 UTC
Actually it has always been harder for me to leave null then to go to it, on a straight forward logistics point of view. And that is not counting getting help from corp and alliance, which often makes it no difficulty at all.

Long story short there isn't actually any barrier to get into null, you just have to find the back doors no one is watching. The routes that aren't the shortest jumps to whatever system in null you want to be in. Hell GW is ******** easy to get into. Small wonder it is as populated as it is. Or was, I haven't been out there in months.

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!

Endeavour Starfleet
#62 - 2011-11-14 13:07:27 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
The problem with 0.0 as I see it, is that alliances became to big, in many cases they control more space then they can possible use, but because it is "their" space they deny others access to it. With the absurdly high moon goo profits there is also little incentive to allow renters in their space and a small alliance that tries to claim a part of 0.0, even a poor and uninteresting one, is just a target.

Another problem is disruption of activity, putting cloaking alts into a system has become a very common practice and one that is very hard to defend against. I know the arguments that are coming now, that it is possible to protect against that, but it usually means having a fleet on standby. In practice it is far more easy to disrupt the activities of neighboring alliances, then to protect your own.

Joining a large alliance has also not much appeal, the current CSM are fine examples of the specimen is such alliances, so the only existance they envision for other players is to be a slave or minion of their alliances, so people who want to stay more independent have also no place there.


This... Especially the part about AFK cloaking


I love it when people claim that AFK cloaking is some kind of small alliance rebel or ninja activity when 90 percent of the time these days it is big alliances using it to attack smaller alliances or to have the same effect as roams.

I made a topic detailed a method to remove the Incentive to AFK cloak. You might be interested in it here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=22840
White Tree
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2011-11-14 13:22:12 UTC
Bounce Celestials. Use DSCAN. Never be caught on a gate v0v.

Former member of CSM6.

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#64 - 2011-11-14 13:38:14 UTC
Inir Ishtori wrote:
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
So what is your point, that players once they see the choke point camp should just high tail it back to the gate? I guess they did not get to experience nullsec... Which is the point of why some players don't go to null... Its camped out, with warp bubbles.

a little patience goes a long way.

I will give you an example which you can believe or not.

Recently I was happily prancing around in Stain when I noticed a Tengu in JS-E8E.
Brought in my covops alt


at that point one can stop reading. the high sec dwellers you guys are so desperate to get into null are probably playing happily on their single account and don't want to bother with relogging on a cheap scout for every single system on their route through 0.0 . hitting scan each couple of seconds while doing some sites in a system with just ONE another player does not sound all that attractive either.


You don't NEED an alt, just as you don't NEED one to do hisec missions faster. I play on one character at a time.

Hey, if you're too scared to lose a ship occasionally then that's fine. At least admit it. Just say, "I, Inir Ishton, don't want to play a game in which I might get blown up. The thought scares the crap out of me."

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Elyssa MacLeod
Doomheim
#65 - 2011-11-14 15:01:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Elyssa MacLeod wrote:
Reilly Duvolle wrote:


I dunno? You missed farming level 4s too much maybe? I was patrolling in a Vaga in null the other day, and stumbled across a Dread Gurista battleship in a belt. So I killed it. It dropped a Crystal Omega implant. It roughly equals doing about 60 level 4s.


Cool story brah, this happens every day?





Lets just say that I have never had any problems funding my characters.


so no then?
Cause farming lvl IVs will net you a nice, reliable money stream.
Ive been in 0.0 for a month three times on my main and never seen drops like what youre claiming. Then again, every corp Ive belonged to has either claimed all loot drops, either in the sanctums or ratting, or has no way to move stuff TO high sec to sell them because theyre "self sufficient" (an interesting concept when the main market in the game is in high sec) and dont want their players running to high sec.

Quote:

You don't NEED an alt, just as you don't NEED one to do hisec missions faster. I play on one character at a time.

Hey, if you're too scared to lose a ship occasionally then that's fine. At least admit it. Just say, "I, Inir Ishton, don't want to play a game in which I might get blown up. The thought scares the crap out of me."


Nice troll attempt.
anyhoo; you have that in high sec too.
Unless theyve finally put in PVP flagging in high sec?
no? Yeah I thought not

GM Homonoia: Suicide ganks are a valid and viable tactic in EVE.

Where is your God now carebear?

Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#66 - 2011-11-14 15:11:41 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
(redacted)

If anything, the mere fact that my ISK income is vastly higher than highsec *saves me* tons of time. 90% of my EVE time is for the purpose of fun, not funding said fun.


One small point - Isk -making is part of the fun / power of nullsec. It would be nice if more was made in Null (besides moon goo of course)... for incentive to go...

...just my 2 isk.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Mukuro Gravedigger
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2011-11-14 15:45:22 UTC
Fact or myth?

I have read numerous times on the (old) forums that pure industrial players are considered more as slaves to the corporation instead of as an equal member. Their goods or minerals are expected to go to the corp either free or at such a rate that running missions in Empire would be more profitable. Industrial players are expected to partake in attacks, defense, or roams at the whims of the directors. And most industrial players are shunned since macros can perform the tasks tiredlessly without question, much less bolting with corp assests.
Hannibal Ord
Fer-De-Lance
#68 - 2011-11-14 15:46:41 UTC
It's simply about total security.

Mankind will always stay in areas which is safer, as a general rule.

Or to put it more simply:-

"Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of Warre, where every man is Enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them withall. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short."
Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
#69 - 2011-11-14 15:57:30 UTC
Elyssa MacLeod wrote:
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
[You know you are right. I just warped through a gate with cloaky fitted whatever I was flying, and I warped to a planet and then I warped through to the gate. no one ever decloaked me or anything. I mean I just trespassed all over that alliances space, but then I realized that there was no fun to be had. My cloaky ship was a poor isk generator, and I was constantly watching local. After ducking blob after blob using my game mechanics, I decided to return to Empire. There I could actually blow something up. I did not have to hide and dodge as much. I was able to turn a profit in seconds. After a while I forgot completely why I went to nullsec. Can someone remind me?


I dunno? You missed farming level 4s too much maybe? I was patrolling in a Vaga in null the other day, and stumbled across a Dread Gurista battleship in a belt. So I killed it. It dropped a Crystal Omega implant. It roughly equals doing about 60 level 4s.


Cool story brah, this happens every day?




B-/A-/X-type module/Vindicator BPCs/Snake Implant drops really aren't that uncommon - even in trashsec Syndicate - if jewing is your thing.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#70 - 2011-11-14 16:07:27 UTC
Elyssa MacLeod wrote:
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Lets just say that I have never had any problems funding my characters.

so no then?
Cause farming lvl IVs will net you a nice, reliable money stream.
…which you need for… what, exactly?
If the money is enough to keep doing what you want (which is what he said), why do you need more?

In fact, if the money is enough to keep doing what you want, then yes, it is indeed nice and reliable enough a stream.
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
#71 - 2011-11-14 16:11:13 UTC
Jr Instructorcon wrote:
To add:

1. CTAs are not the norm. If your alliance does CTAs, get out and find a real alliance.


They are the norm in every alliance but the some of the cfc ones.

[quote]
2. Most of your alliance's money should be going toward member capital ship subsidizing, ship replacement/reimbursement, and sov bills/fuel. If your alliance finances are not public, get out and find a real alliance.
[/quote
Only the cfc does that as well, russians jsut rmt their alliance money
Lharanai
Fools of the Blue Oyster
#72 - 2011-11-14 16:27:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lharanai
can't believe I am posting in one of these threads again....

The problem as I see it is not that null sec is too hard or high sec too safe, because it is not as I learned recently. The problem is that nullsec requires a different kind of playstyle than high sec. They are actually 2 kind of games, and over the years a lot of people joined EVE for just one side of the game, the intense mind-boring null sec game or the relaxed casual high sec game, not both. And you can't force people to play another game (aka your kind).

I am against nerfing/buffing null and high sec for each other, it is as good as the players living in it.

BUT I would really like to see a buff to low and nerf to null AND high sec because I think low sec could be the area where these two groups of players could interact on an equal level.

EVE is the most complex game I ever played, and thats the reason why I got hooked up, over a year now and tons of guides later I still learn something new every week. But I play EVE for fun, not for big goals, and there are tons of players who don't want to get too involved in a game, they will not go through tons of guides, they will not read the forums, they will not complain.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT?

Thats fine with me, they pay for their sub, and I have not the right to tell them how to play EVE, this whole discussion about buffing/nerfing one sec for the other is completely and utterly stupid.

Null sec dwellers you want more people in null, easy make it more attractive and don't whine to CCP
High sec dwellers you want Empire more safe, easy learn at least some game mechanics and don't whine to CCP


P.s. I HATE THE EVE TUTORIALS, potential Explorers check out the shift and alt shortcuts for probes :)

Seriously, don't take me serious, I MEAN IT...seriously

Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#73 - 2011-11-14 16:43:37 UTC
Mukuro Gravedigger wrote:
Fact or myth?

I have read numerous times on the (old) forums that pure industrial players are considered more as slaves to the corporation instead of as an equal member. Their goods or minerals are expected to go to the corp either free or at such a rate that running missions in Empire would be more profitable. Industrial players are expected to partake in attacks, defense, or roams at the whims of the directors. And most industrial players are shunned since macros can perform the tasks tiredlessly without question, much less bolting with corp assests.


in my experience myth.

Depends on the corp of course... in my experience everyone was doing a little bit to help with corp & alliance industry... he who made greater effort received a larger share. There's probably a great number of ways to manage such things though, so I would think it is highly dependent on your corp.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#74 - 2011-11-14 16:43:51 UTC
Lharanai wrote:
Thats fine with me, they pay for their sub, and I have not the right to tell them how to play EVE, this whole discussion about buffing/nerfing one sec for the other is completely and utterly stupid.
Not completely, no. There are a couple of instances where there is no other way to go.

What some people fail to (and need to) realise is that their actions have game-wide consequences, and that those consequences might be out of whack. If (as is often suggested) highsec does indeed pump too much ISK into the game without generating a corresponding increase in production or activating enough ISK sinks, then there's no two ways about it: highsec needs a nerf.

If people come up with the silly argument “I play in highsec so I should be safe” then there is no other answer than “no, you shouldn't — adjust your way of playing the game” because highsec can't be adjusted that way without breaking things.
Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
#75 - 2011-11-14 17:08:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Comrade Commizzar
Malcanis wrote:
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Just curious why you people seem so desperate to convince highsec dwellers to risk Zero?


I'm equally curious why people like you seem so desperate to convince highsec dwellers not to risk Zero.


Malcanis:
I'm not trying to keep highsec dwellers out of zero. CCP has done a good job of that without my help. I am criticizing CCP's game mechanics that are not conducive to new players subscribing to Eve and staying to compete in Zero because of compelling game content.

If CCP wants to re-energize Eve and Zero they need to do several things:

1) Eliminate or severly reduce warp bubble effectiveness. If players have to spend a year just to figure out how to get past the front door, is anyone surprised when they quit in less than six months?

2) Get rid of the "Local" channel. Why do we have scanners??

3) Provide POS with a cloaking module. We cloak ships.. why not POS? Perhaps have the cloak go down to leave and enter.

4) Revamp Corporate mechanisms to provide for clear, transparent, and systematic distribution of Corporate earnings to Corporate members based on rules set by the CEO and Directors that can not be "manipulated" by the leadership. Make in-game auditing a reality. Then fix the problems with stock share system and start an Eve stock market which will be possible once the Corporate book keeping is legitimized.

5) Do not allow any static resource sources to exist for any length of time, make them all depletable and randomly respawning in size and time, and require them to be "discovered".


Do this and Eve will come alive again.
Lharanai
Fools of the Blue Oyster
#76 - 2011-11-14 17:12:32 UTC
Have to work on my communication skills, because I agree with you Tippia, should have highlighted more :(

I do not want a safe high sec, but lets face it in regard of numbers I am quite sure that the majority of ISK grinding in High Sec is done by Nullbear alts, this has to be nerfed I agree, but if you nerf high sec too indifferent...you will lose the casual relaxed players who don't give a penny about null sec and just want to fly a spaceship and chat with some friends.

and before you cry* WOW ------>

CCP needs the revenue, and where do you think your plex are coming from, they don't grow on trees.

*I do not mean you Tippia, your comments are always valid, that was more addressed to the general readers

Seriously, don't take me serious, I MEAN IT...seriously

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#77 - 2011-11-14 17:16:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Just curious why you people seem so desperate to convince highsec dwellers to risk Zero?


I'm equally curious why people like you seem so desperate to convince highsec dwellers not to risk Zero.


Malcanis:
I'm not trying to keep highsec dwellers out of zero. CCP has done a good job of that without my help. I am criticizing CCP's game mechanics that are not conducive to new players subscribing to Eve and staying to compete in Zero because of compelling game content.

If CCP wants to re-energize Eve and Zero they need to do several things:

1) Eliminate or severly reduce warp bubble effectiveness. If a players have to spend a year just to figure out how to get past the front door, is anyone surprised when they quit in less than six months?



Hey, if you don't like warp bubbles, why aren't you mining and missioning in lo-sec? With the increased rewards over hi-sec, and no nasty warp bubbles to spoil everything, not to mention freely available NPC stations all over the place, it's a paradise for the individual player! The huge numbers of non-aligned players making a living in bubble-free lo-sec space are surely a testament to the workability of your argument!

EDIT: BTW I moved to 0.0 when i was less than 3 months into EVE. Please don't make up random statistics to "support" your argument.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
#78 - 2011-11-14 17:18:42 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:

So its all about the isk for you? don't you find patrols a bit tedious?



No, it seemed to be all about the isk for you the way you talk about "instantly turning profit". As for the patrol - Patrol = looking for a fight. And yes, I enjoy it.

Well good for you. I find patrols rather tedious. You know if you are so elite why don't you own your own corp?

********

He can't.. the zero mechanics don't support it. Outside of his Zero Plantation, he be toast in just a matter of time.
Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
#79 - 2011-11-14 17:24:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Comrade Commizzar
Seatox wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:

So its all about the isk for you? don't you find patrols a bit tedious?



No, it seemed to be all about the isk for you the way you talk about "instantly turning profit". As for the patrol - Patrol = looking for a fight. And yes, I enjoy it.

Well good for you. I find patrols rather tedious. You know if you are so elite why don't you own your own corp?


Because managing a proper 0.0 corporation in a proper 0.0 alliance is a hell of a lot of work? It's not just "push button, set tax rate, profit lol", like in highsec. You actually have to organize people, do diplomacy on a regular basis, work with allies, manage morale, hunt spies, and probably a bunch of other things. I, for one, am happy being a footsoldier for other people, because I doubt I could handle the paperwork.

*******

You for one are happy to be a Droog who has settled for the crumbs off the table while the leadership parties on.
Sort of like one of those dogs you see in movies about feudal times where the Lords and Ladies throw you scraps from the feast table.

How Quaint... Glad you find that entertaining. I'm sure your masters do too.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#80 - 2011-11-14 17:42:02 UTC
Messoroz wrote:
Jr Instructorcon wrote:
To add:

1. CTAs are not the norm. If your alliance does CTAs, get out and find a real alliance.


They are the norm in every alliance but the some of the cfc ones.

[quote]
2. Most of your alliance's money should be going toward member capital ship subsidizing, ship replacement/reimbursement, and sov bills/fuel. If your alliance finances are not public, get out and find a real alliance.
[/quote
Only the cfc does that as well, russians jsut rmt their alliance money


It's been about a year since our alliance has had a CTA. Our alliance money goes to ship replacement, SBUs, capital fuel, etc.

I am not in CFC.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016