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Do Level 4 missions pay too much compared to 1 through 3?

First post First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#921 - 2013-09-08 07:25:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
Certainly calling the opposition dishonest doesn't seem to be making any friends.


I'm not here to make friends. I do not feel the need for validation based on the number of people who agree with me.

I am here to advocate to rebalance the game, however.

Quote:
I mean really, if you just name call and berate the opposition and get all uppity when they don't see your way is no surprise that people won't accept your ideas.


You keep saying this. But no one here has been anything short of civil. Well, except apparently, for my legendary "tone", which is not doubt the cause of all of my problems. :P

Once again, the uncivil behavior does not come from my camp.

Quote:
First things first... You need to stop calling it "Nerf Highsec". You need to call it "Balance Highsec".


No. Why lie through my teeth, instead of say what I mean? That's frankly quite dishonest.

I want highsec nerfed, because it is OP. Plain as day.


Quote:

Secondly, you need to stop calling the other side derogatory things and come to terms they have needs and wants too.

...

Explain, in nice terms, that you feel that in order to promote a more healthy game, you would like to see changes that would require some sacrifices to prevent what you perceive as economic problems that will affect everyone negatively.


No. It doesn't matter what they want, they are in the wrong in this.

Further, once what should happen, does, they will howl regardless of any deceptive language I might use to hide it behind. I at least have enough respect for my fellow man to deal with them openly and honestly.
Quote:

You need to win hearts and minds of the people, not make enemies. So stop using words like "intellectual dishonesty" and come up with positive terms like "intellectual conservation" or something.


No, I don't. I am asking for them to be nerfed, I don't expect them to be happy about it.

And "If the boot fits...".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#922 - 2013-09-08 07:30:47 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
a wall of text


None of what you said had anything to do with my statement. Aside from perhaps your first sentence.

Again, I advocate for the intended "risk" of highsec to actually be there. Without that, no discussion of economic balance can really be entertained, since an intended feature to introduce risk is not present at it should be.

And again I shall ask, what is unreasonable about fixing wardecs?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#923 - 2013-09-08 07:32:22 UTC
You still didn't answer the basis of the premise of my suggestions...

If CCP listens to whining then how are you going to fight the whining of 80% of the player base?

ie exhumer buff

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#924 - 2013-09-08 07:33:40 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
You still didn't answer the basis of the premise of my suggestions...

If CCP listens to whining then how are you going to fight the whining of 80% of the player base?

ie exhumer buff


Probably because your premise is flawed.

It predicates on an absolute statement.

CCP does not 100% listen to whining, nor do they 100% ignore it. And there you have it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#925 - 2013-09-08 07:39:18 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


Once again I ask you to provide me with some proof as the 'common ships' used for L4 missions. Is this the same as your so called 'common knowledge' you mentioned earlier on. If so this is merely hearsay or observation and as such is worthless when we are talking about peer reviewable facts.

What if I do a study in which I complete L4 missons in an Assault Frig? is it valid, of course not because it's untypical. All I am asking you for is what is typical. If it's so typical someone, somewhere must have writted a dev blog with some stats on the subject. Or someone must have pulled the data from an API somewhere. I've looked and cant see anything typical, which is why I am once again asking you to furnish me with some evidence to support what you believe is typical or common knowledge.


Go ask on Ships and modules for the best mission ships and come back with what they say. Hell do a quick google search

You will find that the Golem, CNR, Nightmare, Navy typhoon, CNS, Machariel, Rattlesnake and vindicator will come up time after time.

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#926 - 2013-09-08 08:02:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
You still didn't answer the basis of the premise of my suggestions...

If CCP listens to whining then how are you going to fight the whining of 80% of the player base?

ie exhumer buff


Probably because your premise is flawed.

It predicates on an absolute statement.

CCP does not 100% listen to whining, nor do they 100% ignore it. And there you have it.


Well to be fair, they don't seem to be listening to the whining to reverse the exhumer buff.

Also, I like how you can believe calling someone dishonest is non-confrontational.

Anyways, I see the heart of the matter and it looks silly.

You think just because you post on a forums that you will get preferential treatment and that in order to justify your personal world view on the way the game should be played, you decide that you will be above all in consideration.

I doubt I'd ever get you to comprehend to what this exactly means so I won't try.

I've had fun tonight though like it or not. I'm not claiming victory or defeat. I don't post on the forums for the adoration of men, but rather to prod and poke at their id and ego.

And I find it amusing such people exist that are so sure in themselves they are blind the realities of the world.

I'm sure you'll say something back. You can't help yourself and that is the fun part of the forum game. Everyone comes up with something. My goal is to see how far that goes. To make people show their true selves.

And before I go to bed I leave you with this one question...

Are you so beloved by the developers that you need not the love of life and have to spend your entire night creating literary works of text to remind them of that love that must be unconditional.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#927 - 2013-09-08 08:12:19 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:


Well to be fair, they don't seem to be listening to the whining to reverse the exhumer buff.


CCP are not happy with the barge rebalance and it will be getting looked at in the future along with EA frigs and probably assault battlecruisers

Incidentally, pointing out balance issues using facts and figures is not whining.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#928 - 2013-09-08 08:15:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


Once again I ask you to provide me with some proof as the 'common ships' used for L4 missions. Is this the same as your so called 'common knowledge' you mentioned earlier on. If so this is merely hearsay or observation and as such is worthless when we are talking about peer reviewable facts.

What if I do a study in which I complete L4 missons in an Assault Frig? is it valid, of course not because it's untypical. All I am asking you for is what is typical. If it's so typical someone, somewhere must have writted a dev blog with some stats on the subject. Or someone must have pulled the data from an API somewhere. I've looked and cant see anything typical, which is why I am once again asking you to furnish me with some evidence to support what you believe is typical or common knowledge.


Go ask on Ships and modules for the best mission ships and come back with what they say. Hell do a quick google search

You will find that the Golem, CNR, Nightmare, Navy typhoon, CNS, Machariel, Rattlesnake and vindicator will come up time after time.




Again though the opinions of others on the Ships and Modules forum cannot be relied upon due to meta game considerations, likewise it does not present statistical data only opinions, not peer reviewable facts. I suggest that you start ignoring my posts as like the Emperor you have no clothes.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#929 - 2013-09-08 08:16:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
baltec1 wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:


Well to be fair, they don't seem to be listening to the whining to reverse the exhumer buff.


CCP are not happy with the barge rebalance and it will be getting looked at in the future along with EA frigs and probably assault battlecruisers

Incidentally, pointing out balance issues using facts and figures is not whining.


Strange that, whenever I ask you for facts and figures we get neither, plus the work of rebalancing all ships is continual, CCP are not going to nerf easily gankable ships. If anything gets nerfed it will be their performance attributes, such as the amount of ore they mine per cycle etc, etc, etc....

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#930 - 2013-09-08 08:27:17 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


Strange that, whenever I ask you for facts and figures we get neither, plus the work of rebalancing all ships is continual, CCP are not going to nerf easily gankable ships. If anything gets nerfed it will be their performance attributes, such as the amount of ore they mine per cycle etc, etc, etc....


Perhaps if you paid attention to what's going on in this game you would know these things.

Little Dragon Khamez wrote:



Again though the opinions of others on the Ships and Modules forum cannot be relied upon due to meta game considerations, likewise it does not present statistical data only opinions, not peer reviewable facts. I suggest that you start ignoring my posts as like the Emperor you have no clothes.


Meta game considerations? What has that got to do with people talking about ship fittings?
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#931 - 2013-09-08 08:30:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


Strange that, whenever I ask you for facts and figures we get neither, plus the work of rebalancing all ships is continual, CCP are not going to nerf easily gankable ships. If anything gets nerfed it will be their performance attributes, such as the amount of ore they mine per cycle etc, etc, etc....


Perhaps if you paid attention to what's going on in this game you would know these things.

Little Dragon Khamez wrote:



Again though the opinions of others on the Ships and Modules forum cannot be relied upon due to meta game considerations, likewise it does not present statistical data only opinions, not peer reviewable facts. I suggest that you start ignoring my posts as like the Emperor you have no clothes.


Meta game considerations? What has that got to do with people talking about ship fittings?


Because if the current buzz is that X ship + Y fittings = Mission Runner Win then that's what people will fly for a bit, until they learn the hard way. At best it's a measure of trends, trends come and go, it's hardly the facts you keep on telling me exist. So far you have not provided one fact lol!

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#932 - 2013-09-08 08:56:58 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


Because if the current buzz is that X ship + Y fittings = Mission Runner Win then that's what people will fly for a bit, until they learn the hard way. At best it's a measure of trends, trends come and go, it's hardly the facts you keep on telling me exist. So far you have not provided one fact lol!



People work with facts and numbers that anyone can check if they are real or not simply by using one of the two fitting tools. Then we come to the massive flaw in your argument with that there is nothing at all to gain from telling lies in that forum section which will found out almost instantly.

So no, you cant just invalidate an entire subforum dedicated to ships and fittings that's holds all the evidence you could want in seeing what ships get used for what. The very fact that you are trying to say the raven hulls are not popular missions boats alone shows just how clueless you are when it comes to EVEs history and current state.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#933 - 2013-09-08 09:14:01 UTC
Quote:
You think just because you post on a forums that you will get preferential treatment and that in order to justify your personal world view on the way the game should be played, you decide that you will be above all in consideration.


Nothing of the sort. I am pointing out a balance problem. You are seriously trying to read motivation into what I do or say. And it doesn't make any sense at all.

Quote:
Also, I like how you can believe calling someone dishonest is non-confrontational.


Stating that what someone said is dishonest is not a personal attack.

Quote:
And before I go to bed I leave you with this one question...

Are you so beloved by the developers that you need not the love of life and have to spend your entire night creating literary works of text to remind them of that love that must be unconditional.


That's not a question. It doesn't have a question mark at the end.

Furthermore, the statement in and of itself has no meaning. As in, it is literally nonsensical. I suggest you get some sleep.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#934 - 2013-09-08 09:59:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
a wall of text


None of what you said had anything to do with my statement. Aside from perhaps your first sentence.

Again, I advocate for the intended "risk" of highsec to actually be there. Without that, no discussion of economic balance can really be entertained, since an intended feature to introduce risk is not present at it should be.

And again I shall ask, what is unreasonable about fixing wardecs?


- When I was in my previous PvP corp, we actively did joint operations with a powerful German based mercs corp called GIS.

- Since then and even now, the second (non trading related) most income I make is by acting as 3rd party at negotiating and organizing merc corps and war logistics corps transactions between them and their clients. Even right today.

For what I see by doing this, wardecs are certainly not at an all time high but they are still going.

I don't know what's the precise best balance between opposite interests ("make high sec a Bronx NAO" vs "plz don't hurt my teddy retriever") but CCP are slowly tweaking this very sensitive topic in baby steps.
This has a corollary: CCP don't want to see an empty high sec. Be it for their revenue or for other more "gamey" factors.

Also, what's a "rebalance wardecs" post has to do in a "nerf L4" thread?

Albeit vaguely influencing each other, hi sec security is a topic, safety is another, L4 are another and wardecs are yet another. Making an huge soup is only going to mud waters and create confusion.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#935 - 2013-09-08 10:05:20 UTC
Quote:
Also, what's a "rebalance wardecs" post has to do in a "nerf L4" thread?


This isn't even exclusively a nerf L4 thread. This is a "buff L1-3" thread too. But then, the OP is a notorious troll, so people just took it and ran with it.

And I am not saying that wardecs are impossible, or that they can't be good business.

What I am saying is that avoiding them is completely trivial. And, to anyone and everyone who isn't super attached to their corp name, wardecs present no risk. None whatsoever.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#936 - 2013-09-08 10:09:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Captain Tardbar wrote:
You still haven't addressed the issue though... If whining is what drives changes in EVE, how are you going to push a nerf on 80% of the player base without a massive threadnaught that puts the exhumer ones to shame thus canceling your personal efforts.
It's not 80%, btw…

Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

Once again I ask you to provide me with some proof as the 'common ships' used for L4 missions.
…and you're once again barking up the wrong tree.
The Golem used for those tests was not special. it was not an all-V character running über mods. It was a well-skilled character using a reasonable fit on a good mission ship. Even back then, there were better ships, fits, and characters. Since then, we've gotten even better ships, modules, and skills. Hell, he used a Drake for salvaging — we have the Noctis.

The number he presented sounded high to some back in the day; today, they're not nearly as unreasonable since everything is better, faster, easier. The ship was not unrepresentative back then; its many equivalents are not unrepresentative today; the numbers are only unrepresentative in that they don't take into account how much quicker they can be earned today.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#937 - 2013-09-08 10:15:41 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


I shouldn't have to follow any evidence trail. It should be presented in order for us to understand a coherent argument. If I argued against or for global warming you would expect me to provide solid peer reviewable facts that either support my argument that warming is somehow happening or that it isn't. It's no good me saying to you to visit your local library or even worse get on the internet, or that google is your friend, because naturally enough I might not find the same sources that you are relying upon to support your argument. This is intellectual laziness or a big fat dishonesty shield....


There is only 1 entity that has the factual accurate data that Tippia et al alleges to posses.
and CCP aren't publishing it, they haven't done so now for several years.

In short, as CCP don't publish the data, Tippia, Malcanis etc. are just posting opinion and guesswork

Opinion is not factual
Guestimates are not accurate data

therefore you can freely ignore them and their pointless, baseless arguments.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#938 - 2013-09-08 10:18:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Kitty Bear wrote:
There is only 1 entity that has the factual accurate data that Tippia et al alleges to posses.
and CCP aren't publishing it
All the data we present comes directly from CCP (except for the “how much I earned” stuff Kefira collected, since he's a better source for that than CCP).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#939 - 2013-09-08 10:18:36 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


I shouldn't have to follow any evidence trail. It should be presented in order for us to understand a coherent argument. If I argued against or for global warming you would expect me to provide solid peer reviewable facts that either support my argument that warming is somehow happening or that it isn't. It's no good me saying to you to visit your local library or even worse get on the internet, or that google is your friend, because naturally enough I might not find the same sources that you are relying upon to support your argument. This is intellectual laziness or a big fat dishonesty shield....


There is only 1 entity that has the factual accurate data that Tippia et al alleges to posses.
and CCP aren't publishing it, they haven't done so now for several years.

In short, as CCP don't publish the data, Tippia, Malcanis etc. are just posting opinion and guesswork

Opinion is not factual
Guestimates are not accurate data

therefore you can freely ignore them and their pointless, baseless arguments.


Only what has been posted are accurate earnings made from missions and how long it took to do the missions.

There is no guesswork involved at all just raw numbers.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#940 - 2013-09-08 10:34:59 UTC
I'm sorry but your proposed data is non-inclusive, unverifiable, and wouldn't be worth the paper it was printed on if it was printed.

The last Q.E.N report is several years out of date
and as such you have NO quantifiable evidence that can stand up to scrutiny

you have guestimates
you have cherry picked suppositions