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Do Level 4 missions pay too much compared to 1 through 3?

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#881 - 2013-09-08 04:41:48 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And that's the real problem. Sometimes, CCP does cave in to whining. Which is why discussions like these must take place.


Well if you want to believe that then I suppose that is on you.

Which I guess should make you feel bad because they buffed both exhumers and nerfed moon goo.

Which I guess means they listen to carebears more than you... Maybe you aren't posting enough. You should spend more time doing that.

Well there was the ice mining changes, but that really didn't end up as a high sec nerf as ice mining isk per hour went up dramatically.

But maybe if you used less personal attacks on players that played differently than you and asked more diplomatically then CCP might be more amiable to your suggestions as they wouldn't see you as a biased agenda leader.

Its not like the CSM has been in null hands for years and yet no major nerf to high sec has been noted as much as the exhumer buff was.

Still free to petition. Just don't get all uppity when people disagree with you.


There's no not believin' there is proof: mining barge buffs. Also something that means ~~~~Highsec is Safe~~~~. Your sig still needs to change to a more nullsec friendly sig.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#882 - 2013-09-08 04:44:02 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
There's no not believin' there is proof: mining barge buffs. Also something that means ~~~~Highsec is Safe~~~~. Your sig still needs to change to a more nullsec friendly sig.

Untanked retrievers are still dying. Each barge lossmail screams for more buffs

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#883 - 2013-09-08 04:44:52 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Read the "Highsec Miner Grab Bag" sometimes, you'll see what I mean. You do seem to have it backwards. The people to whom disagreement warrants vehemence and vitriol are in the camp you are standing in, not in mine.

It wouldn't happen if highsec was actually safe instead of allowing safe ganking

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#884 - 2013-09-08 04:45:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Well if you want to believe that then I suppose that is on you.

Which I guess should make you feel bad because they buffed both exhumers and nerfed moon goo.

Which I guess means they listen to carebears more than you... Maybe you aren't posting enough. You should spend more time doing that.

Missed the point. Adjust your iron sights, and reacquire the target.

Maybe he should use missiles. They never miss, even if you use capital torps. Which are overpowered

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#885 - 2013-09-08 04:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
I wasn't talking to you other person. If you want to get hostile then maybe you should realize why you aren't being listened to.

I'm only trying to be helpful. Usually being openly hostile is the least way to get proposals accepted by non-hostile people.

I mean you seem to be actually angry actually over my forums posts. (100 points meta game for me)

And to the person I was talking to, I was role playing which means having a fun time fantasizing about being a diplomat and playing a game and trying a new approach to an old problem.

If you want to keep being mad about my signature, then its done its job.

I'll change it if you send me 100 million isk however. I have a low price. Let me know when you sent it so I'll log in on that account.

Anyways... If you think you've proven your point, why do you keep posting? Are you afraid that I'll single handedly convice CCP to buff high-sec income?

I'm certainly not going to change my own mind until I see meaningful data comparisons provided by CCP which has been admitted to not exist currently.

Also, one more question... This is a paradox. If CCP listens to whining, won't they logically not **** off 80% of their player base because of the whining that will occcur. So if they did nerf high sec, would not the massive threadnaught that would occur cause them to change their minds rendering your efforts useless?

Are you going to say you are going to post massive amounts until they see your way? I mean that didn't seem to help the exhumer buff, no?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#886 - 2013-09-08 05:04:34 UTC
Quote:
I'm certainly not going to change my own mind until I see meaningful data comparisons provided by CCP which has been admitted to not exist currently.


Another significant example of intellectual dishonesty.

In this case, it could reasonably be described as moving the goal posts, but is better described as "setting up for failure".

Claiming you will only listen when something is provided that you are fully aware does not and likely never shall exist...

Quote:
If you want to keep being mad about my signature, then its done its job.


Who's mad? For myself, all I told you is that both of those statements in your sig are utterly wrong. Which they are.

But if you mean one of the several Goons in the thread, neither of them have given any reaction I would describe as "mad", either.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#887 - 2013-09-08 05:14:03 UTC
Well your text has tones of aggression. You seem to take personal offense with me in some fashion and my beliefs in that you assert that you are right and that wrong. I can only conclude that this energy is the result of being motivated to post which means I motivate you somehow to continue to post. If I wasn't causing an emotion of sorts then why do you post with such hostile language.

If you cannot see this then, you most likley won't learn why you have not been listened to.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#888 - 2013-09-08 05:18:39 UTC
Quote:
Well your text has tones of aggression.


And... you're ascribing my motivations based on your reactions to my "tone" over the internet?

Does this seem reasonable to you, I ask?
Quote:

I can only conclude that this energy is the result of being motivated to post which means I motivate you somehow to continue to post.


Incorrect. I work night shift, and at present I am intensely bored.

Quote:
If I wasn't causing an emotion of sorts then why do you post with such hostile language.


"hostile"? First of all, hostile in your opinion only.

Secondly, why do you equate my telling you that you are wrong with hostility?

P.S., I love your snide assertion that CCP might be more inclined to acquiese to me if only I changed my "tone". That's passive aggression on a level I haven't seen in a while. :)

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#889 - 2013-09-08 05:21:04 UTC
Well when was the last time they listened to you personally and actually changed the game in some fashion?

And I mean personally as in just you.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#890 - 2013-09-08 05:22:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Well when was the last time they listened to you personally and actually changed the game in some fashion?

And I mean personally as in just you.


What, on earth, does that have to do with anything?

Oh, and for your answer, that'd be more recent than you might imagine. Features and Ideas forum, for the win.

[Edit: But again, I would question why your statement above has any relevance to the topic.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#891 - 2013-09-08 05:24:58 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Well when was the last time they listened to you personally and actually changed the game in some fashion?

And I mean personally as in just you.


What, on earth, does that have to do with anything?

Oh, and for your answer, that'd be more recent than you might imagine. Features and Ideas forum, for the win.


Care to link the thread in question?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#892 - 2013-09-08 05:25:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I'm certainly not going to change my own mind until I see meaningful data comparisons provided by CCP which has been admitted to not exist currently.

Another significant example of intellectual dishonesty.

In this case, it could reasonably be described as moving the goal posts, but is better described as "setting up for failure".

Claiming you will only listen when something is provided that you are fully aware does not and likely never shall exist...

So you admit defeat then

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#893 - 2013-09-08 05:29:04 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I'm certainly not going to change my own mind until I see meaningful data comparisons provided by CCP which has been admitted to not exist currently.

Another significant example of intellectual dishonesty.

In this case, it could reasonably be described as moving the goal posts, but is better described as "setting up for failure".

Claiming you will only listen when something is provided that you are fully aware does not and likely never shall exist...

So you admit defeat then


Well, insofar as the task given is impossible, yes.

But more that I reject the premise.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#894 - 2013-09-08 05:33:30 UTC
You go post those links to those idea CCP added to the game and that comparison data.

I'm not emotionally invested in this fight other than the enjoyement of the post. Its been rather amusing as usually seeing people get all upity and fall over themselves when provoked by someone who obivously isn't taking this fight seriously. I really liked the fact my sig caused you to get to a point to demand I change it.

I'm going to play War Thunder and go to bed.

Keep this thread warm for me.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#895 - 2013-09-08 05:37:26 UTC
Quote:
Its been rather amusing as usually seeing people get all upity and fall over themselves when provoked by someone who obivously isn't taking this fight seriously. I really liked the fact my sig caused you to get to a point to demand I change it.


Wow.

Again, you leap ever higher into the cloud of intellectual dishonesty.

Claims to have made people mad, despite a weight of evidence to the contrary.

Claims victory by default as a result of his original false premise.

Claims to have not been "taking the fight seriously".

Doesn't realize he has been trolled about the very thing he is claiming victory over.

Even I must bow before the trolling skills of the Goons.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#896 - 2013-09-08 05:55:17 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
You can make hi sec pay dirt and the players will just put up with it.

You can give hi sec as much risk as low sec and the players will just find a new game.

The only way you are going to see a flux of people relocate to null is if null becomes just an extension of hi. I think that many people who play in hi are people who either don't have much time to play or simply don't care for pvp (in many cases both). Miners that just want to log in and warp strait from station to belt, mine and then return. Mission runners who want to just accept the mission, warp straight there, complete it, and then warp straight back.

These people don't want to have to be constantly looking over their shoulders. They don't want to be constantly monitoring local. They don't want have to deal with 6 'warp from dock' book marks. Another 6 'view warp gate from safe distance' book marks. They don't want to have to take indirect routes to get from the dock to the gate either just to avoid being pulled out of warp.

Ganking? Sure, it's going to happen. It happens in both null and hi.

You really want to see null become more active? For there to be an infrastructure that rivals hi sec? To have availability of parts/ships at prices comparable to hi? There is one thing people would have to be willing to do and one things CCP would have to do.

The one thing players can do is to not gank people who are obviously pure industrialists.

The one thing CCP can do is allow those who have sov over a system to be able to enforce a minimum 'safety level' on the ships that enter.

If the industrialists can do their thing with the same level of safety in null as they can in hi, I think they would be more than happy to move there and sell their product to the local population. Get enough there and then you get competitive pricing.

As for mission runners, I think they too would eventually move out there once they skill up enough to be able to handle the rats out there.


Where does this madness come from. Not you personally Angeal, just in general. Why does it always devolve into some idea about pushing people out of high sec.

I mean, by a show of hands, how many of us care if high sec people never leave high sec.

*sees no hands what-so-ever*

That's what I thought.



Well, I've seen "buff null" threads. Now, with there being more risk to null, I can certainly understand that the reward should be greater. If that is not the case then that is definitely an issue.

The problem is not the "buff null" threads. The problem are the "nerf hi sec" threads. I've seen various ones. Make lvl 4's require players to venture into low sec for the reward. Reduce the reward/bounties on lvl 4's since they take place in hi sec. etc. etc. If these people really don't care if hi sec people move into null, then why make a "nerf hi sec" thread? Why not make a "buff null" thread instead? Then there are the "make hi sec less secure" threads/posts. Fewer but there are some floating around.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#897 - 2013-09-08 06:07:15 UTC
Quote:
Well, I've seen "buff null" threads. Now, with there being more risk to null, I can certainly understand that the reward should be greater. If that is not the case then that is definitely an issue.

The problem is not the "buff null" threads. The problem are the "nerf hi sec" threads. I've seen various ones. Make lvl 4's require players to venture into low sec for the reward. Reduce the reward/bounties on lvl 4's since they take place in hi sec. etc. etc. If these people really don't care if hi sec people move into null, then why make a "nerf hi sec" thread? Why not make a "buff null" thread instead? Then there are the "make hi sec less secure" threads/posts. Fewer but there are some floating around.


Would you like to know why the right answer isn't "buff nullsec"?

Inflation.

Inflation is very, very bad for the game in general, and for new players in particular. (and the learning curve of this game is legendary as it is)

Here is why the other two are valid.

Highsec income is too high in relation not just to nullsec, but to lowsec and W-space as well. Highsec is the outlier here, not nullsec, so it should be balanced around the others.

Further, the root cause of highsec income being too high is not their gross income. It's their net income. Not in the sheer amount of money they can make, but in how little risk is involved, and how little overhead they have as well. Income can be measured as gross income minus costs (both initial and from risk/losses). So their lack of costs also contributes to inflation as well.

So, since highsec is:

A. too lucrative

B. too safe

Rather than savagely nerf both, many people, myself included, argue for smaller adjustments in both areas. I argue for giving wardecs more teeth. They are designed to be the risk in highsec. But since you can dodge them, you can eliminate the primary risk that was intended for that part of space. My own proposal some time ago was to generate several killrights on someone leaving a corp during a wardec.

Put the risk that was always supposed to be there back, and then we can see if the out of control highsec income falls back into place.

If not, then we can start talking about nerfing actual income.

Is that really all that unreasonable?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#898 - 2013-09-08 06:09:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Its been rather amusing as usually seeing people get all upity and fall over themselves when provoked by someone who obivously isn't taking this fight seriously. I really liked the fact my sig caused you to get to a point to demand I change it.


Wow.

Again, you leap ever higher into the cloud of intellectual dishonesty.

Claims to have made people mad, despite a weight of evidence to the contrary.

Claims victory by default as a result of his original false premise.

Claims to have not been "taking the fight seriously".

Doesn't realize he has been trolled about the very thing he is claiming victory over.

Even I must bow before the trolling skills of the Goons.


LOL, I thought the same thing, reminded me of every "didn't want that ship anyways" post I've ver seen Cool
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#899 - 2013-09-08 06:16:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Tippia's numbers: http://blog.beyondreality.se/ISK-faucets-sinks
Quote:
Faucets:
Bounty prizes: 896.34 billion ISK (up from 876.04 billion in 2010).
NPC buy orders: 337.4 billion ISK (n/a for 2010).
Incursion rewards: 301.8 billion ISK (and 4.7 million LP, n/a in 2010).
Insurance payouts: 125.8 billion ISK (up from 111.9 billion ISK in 2010).
Agent mission rewards: 74.68 billion ISK (up from 68.93 billion in 2010).
Agent mission bonuses: 71.21 billion ISK (up from 63.45 billion in 2010)

How much of that isk is made in high, low, and null? And what's the population breakdown by high/low/null? (My google-fu has failed me.)

Incursions are 92% highsec. Mission rewards and bonuses are in the same ballpark. NPC buy orders are at least 66% null (w-space to be accurate). The bounty-to-agent reward/bonus ratio has been estimated at roughly 3:1, which would mean half of the bounties come from missions and 90:ish percent of those being in highsec (but then, out-of-HS missions such as L5s and pirate missions tend to be more LP- and loot based than based on bounties so it could well be a higher portion than that).

The last (character) population breakdown I saw was 65% highsec, 8% low, 21% null, 6% w-space.
At the same time, 0.8 missions were run per day per subscriber (and 31% of the players had mission running as their primary activity, no info on character distribution). 5% had dabbled with incursions, but only 1% counted it as a primary activity. Unfortunately, FF2013 was more retrospective and really-long-term strokes, so most of the recent data we have is from FF2012 and Diagoras' tweeting spree in spring 2012.

(nts: 1058)


Any chance that for once you can provide a link that supports your post. I would on the normal face of things accept the above on face value, but you've done much to harm the credibility of your arguments throughout this thread hence my desire for real, peer reviewable facts that support your supposition.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#900 - 2013-09-08 06:22:10 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Its been rather amusing as usually seeing people get all upity and fall over themselves when provoked by someone who obivously isn't taking this fight seriously. I really liked the fact my sig caused you to get to a point to demand I change it.


Wow.

Again, you leap ever higher into the cloud of intellectual dishonesty.

Claims to have made people mad, despite a weight of evidence to the contrary.

Claims victory by default as a result of his original false premise.

Claims to have not been "taking the fight seriously".

Doesn't realize he has been trolled about the very thing he is claiming victory over.

Even I must bow before the trolling skills of the Goons.



Ok so I lied. I played one round of War Thunder and got bored so I came back.

Every time you use that term "intellectual dishonesty" I have to grin. You might claim to not be mad, but you sure type like you are with that terminology. One does not simply call someone in a friendly argument intellectually dishonest. You have issues with me and do not like the fact I post. If I didn't bother you so much, you should use less argumentative language like "you might not realize your mistakes, no offense, and I hope to help you see my point of view".

Hrm... One other thing. Though, are you are saying I've been trolled and that null sec really doesn't care about high-sec after all? If that is true then I suppose I've done my job.

I mean I'm not claiming victory about anything in particular. I made a gamble with something in particular and it paid off.

You can keep posting if it makes you think you'll get CCP to listen to you over other players.

I feel safe that either:

A. They don't actually listen to whiners.

or

B. If they did listen to whiners, they'd listen to the carebears because there are so much more of them they'd cause more noise like they supposedly did over the exhumer buff and the moon nerfs.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server