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Consequences (?)

Author
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#81 - 2013-09-07 19:00:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dave Stark wrote:
also, since when was motive a balancing factor in this game?

You mentioned balance, I predict an Infinity and Byerley double whammy in the near future. You should feel bad for subjecting other forum goers to this horror.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Dave stark
#82 - 2013-09-07 19:01:34 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
also, since when was motive a balancing factor in this game?

You mentioned balance, I predict an Infinity and Byerley double whammy in the near future. You should feel bad for subjecting other forum goers to this horror.


i regret nothing.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2013-09-07 19:27:28 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Well I guess that entirely answers the question that was raised. Since they do it for fun and not profit and its not profit driven then the consequences are about zero?

Nope, they are losing ISK and gaining nothing. That is a consequence, just not an absolute deterrent.

The amount of isk they lose is of no consequence. It costs each player 2 million isk and very little training time and no effort to execute the gank, to remove 6 billion isk from another player who potentially spent months of generating income and months of training to get into that ship.

Now that's not imbalanced if its in low or null but in high sec that causes a serious problem, the game becomes a turkey shoot with serious consequences for the victim and no consequences for the low brows.

An MMO should be balanced, for each action you should be entitled to a chance of some profit, some potential loss and required to put in some effort.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Dave stark
#84 - 2013-09-07 19:29:14 UTC
a 6bn isk ship is just pixels in a game. the loss is of no consequence. thus, balance is restored.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#85 - 2013-09-07 19:30:23 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Now that's not imbalanced if its in low or null but in high sec that causes a serious problem, the game becomes a turkey shoot with serious consequences for the victim and no consequences for the low brows.
Why (and how) does the balance suddenly change just because it's in highsec?

And again, just because the victims choose to waive the consequences doesn't mean that they don't exist.
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2013-09-07 19:31:47 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
An MMO should be balanced, for each action you should be entitled to a chance of some profit, some potential loss and required to put in some effort.


This is hilarious coming from the person advocating for the ability to destroy sov structures solo and with no reinforcement timers.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2013-09-07 19:33:16 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
a 6bn isk ship is just pixels in a game. the loss is of no consequence. thus, balance is restored.

This is incorrect. Isk takes time to generate, it also has an out of game monetary value (plex) therefore it is not just pixels.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Dave stark
#88 - 2013-09-07 19:34:48 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
a 6bn isk ship is just pixels in a game. the loss is of no consequence. thus, balance is restored.

This is incorrect. Isk takes time to generate, it also has an out of game monetary value (plex) therefore it is not just pixels.


that's not what you just said.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#89 - 2013-09-07 19:35:04 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
This is incorrect. Isk takes time to generate, it also has an out of game monetary value (plex) therefore it is not just pixels.

…and a gank takes time to generate as well. And no, ISK does not have a monetary value unless you break the EULA.
It is still just pixels.
Dave stark
#90 - 2013-09-07 19:36:49 UTC
and here is the offending quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The amount of isk they lose is of no consequence.
Alara IonStorm
#91 - 2013-09-07 19:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Infinity Ziona wrote:

The amount of isk they lose is of no consequence. It costs each player 2 million isk and very little training time and no effort to execute the gank, to remove 6 billion isk from another player who potentially spent months of generating income and months of training to get into that ship.

Don't fly a Six Billion ISK Fit Ship then without excepting that risk. Bling is a risk factor. Unless you are talking about that Jump Freighter kill you posted because why even travel gates with those things when they are for jumping.

If the cost of the gank is two low CCP will make adjustments as they always have before to any skewed mechanic, just like they did with insurance removal and proc/mack/indy balance.
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Now that's not imbalanced if its in low or null but in high sec that causes a serious problem, the game becomes a turkey shoot with serious consequences for the victim and no consequences for the low brows.

Not really, the numerous and obscenely rich Goons already tried to "Burn Jita" Been to Jita? It's doin just fine.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#92 - 2013-09-07 19:44:46 UTC
I see the goons only use 2 mil isk ships to gank people myth is back.
Dave stark
#93 - 2013-09-07 19:45:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
I see the goons only use 2 mil isk ships to gank people myth is back.


it went away?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2013-09-07 19:45:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
This is incorrect. Isk takes time to generate, it also has an out of game monetary value (plex) therefore it is not just pixels.

…and a gank takes time to generate as well. And no, ISK does not have a monetary value unless you break the EULA.
It is still just pixels.

The difference in time between accumulating isk to buy a jump freighter and to train to use is vastly more than the amount of time required to train for a T1 catalyst and accumlate 2 million isk. As you well know.

As for Plex. Plex is sold for real life currency. It may be resold for real life currency or traded to another player to convert into isk or game time. Isk can and is reconverted back into real life currency, CCP says its not allowed but that does not mean it does not have a value based on real life currency because it does. Even when not breaching the EULA 20 real life dollars can be converted into 500,000,000 isk and therefore isk has a real life currency value. That could be clearly seen when it was being reported in the news that an approximately real life value $9000 titan was destroyed.




CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Alara IonStorm
#95 - 2013-09-07 19:48:13 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

The difference in time between accumulating isk to buy a jump freighter and to train to use is vastly more than the amount of time required to train for a T1 catalyst and accumlate 2 million isk. As you well know.

So what? Jump Freighters are ungankable, you just bring the goods to them in regular Freighters, take them on a clean scouted undock and jump.

Remember when you were going on about effort.
Dave stark
#96 - 2013-09-07 19:51:40 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The difference in time between accumulating isk to buy a jump freighter and to train to use is vastly more than the amount of time required to train for a T1 catalyst and accumlate 2 million isk. As you well know.


rhea, ~90 days, less with implants.

catalyst ~26 days, less with implants.

are you telling me that 3 catalysts can take down a freighter? or are you telling me you have no idea how long it takes to train things?
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#97 - 2013-09-07 19:52:30 UTC  |  Edited by: S Byerley
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
also, since when was motive a balancing factor in this game?

You mentioned balance, I predict an Infinity and Byerley double whammy in the near future. You should feel bad for subjecting other forum goers to this horror.


If you like, I can point out the obvious self-contradiction -

Dave and a few other commonly argue that the skewed ganker/gankee balance isn't a problem because the activity isn't rampant - the reason for that is obviously motivation since the cost, investment, and return are about as attractive as it gets.

If you turn around and say that nothing should be balanced around motive, it follows that highsec ganking should be brought in line with everything else.

In reality, motive obviously does have an impact on balance since the dastardliness of the activity generally scales with the reward: ie scamming, awox'ing, ganking.

You could argue that represents player controlled balance: space morally degenerate activities have less competition -> more reward, and you'd have a decent point. No ones really argued the distinction between CCP imposed and naturally evolving balance though; it gets complicated.

baltec1 wrote:
I see the goons only use 2 mil isk ships to gank people myth is back.


I see you're still trying to deny what everyone can look up on killboards?
Dave stark
#98 - 2013-09-07 19:53:52 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Dave and a few other commonly argue that the skewed ganker/gankee balance isn't a problem because the activity isn't rampant


i've never commented on the frequency of the activity in question.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2013-09-07 19:54:54 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

The difference in time between accumulating isk to buy a jump freighter and to train to use is vastly more than the amount of time required to train for a T1 catalyst and accumlate 2 million isk. As you well know.

So what? Jump Freighters are ungankable, you just bring the goods to them in regular Freighters, take them on a clean scouted undock and jump.

Remember when you were going on about effort.

A jump freighter is capable of and so intended by CCP to be able to use gates. A jump freighter pilot should be relatively safe in highsec when using gates. Currently they are not, even when empty.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#100 - 2013-09-07 19:57:08 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

The difference in time between accumulating isk to buy a jump freighter and to train to use is vastly more than the amount of time required to train for a T1 catalyst and accumlate 2 million isk. As you well know.

So what? Jump Freighters are ungankable, you just bring the goods to them in regular Freighters, take them on a clean scouted undock and jump.

Remember when you were going on about effort.

A jump freighter is capable of and so intended by CCP to be able to use gates. A jump freighter pilot should be relatively safe in highsec when using gates. Currently they are not, even when empty.


So where are all of the empty ganked jump freighter kills?

While we are at it why if its so dangerous is there so few ganks on freighters as a whole given the hundreds of thousands of tips made every month?