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Honor in Modern Combat

Author
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#21 - 2011-11-14 13:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
The duelling culture in New Eden, in defence of “battleships at dawn”

From time to time we’ve all seen it happen. Pilots come to virtual blows on IGS or (in the old days) CAOD, tempers flare and in the height of passion come the words “I challenge you to a duel.” Now some may see this as a ridiculous anachronism, the concept of starships fighting single combats against the tapestry of stars. What about the crews? What about the humanity of the captains? What is settled by this anyway? All reasonable questions so let’s look a little deeper into the history of duelling in New Eden.

At root the capsuleer is a larger than life hero. We are Captains; the leaders of starships, and even the youngest pilots may well have a crew of a dozen or so on their tech1 frigate while they are out mining their first mission ore. And the name of each captain becomes an indelible part of the history of New Eden with every act and choice they make.

Some will sink off into obscurity and retire planetside; some will remain in shadows of the void content to live their life in peace and quiet. But others, (and generally always with prominent IGS speakers) will seek something more – the notoriety and fame that brings their name in lights to New Eden. This is the secret spice of the capsuleer lifestyle that some crave and others become addicted to.

So where does the duel come into this?

Well it’s a proof of courage and personality that a captain is prepared to put aside the advantages of their corporation and fleet and stand out alone and face an enemy in a test of arms. It shows commitment and it displays a few positive attributes that are important if any mutual respect between combatants is to arise in the future.

The very act of preparing a ship and meeting your enemy in a duel pays an awful lot of respect to your opponent. It says that both are more than simply empty forum noise coughing out imprecations on the IGS/CAOD or wherever. Both captains are people of substance, who have the courage of their convictions, who are players of the great game of politics in New Eden not just cheap insult proxies and throwaway mouthpieces amongst the forum hurly-burly. Both are taking part in a ritual that’s older than spaceships and modern weaponry, which goes back to the nature of leadership and reputation itself. Why would men follow anyone who lacked the courage of their convictions in this way? It’s a primal question.

But why the duel itself?

Well, as we all know New Eden rewards treachery and cunning traps. Whoever can bring the biggest fleet, lay the tastiest bait, play dirtiest, take all the advantages and none of the risks will generally win out. ECM, damping, disruption, jump bridging, neutral logistics, speed-kiting, target fritzing the lot. Space combat is a matter of never giving a sucker an even break and its always been this way. Its harsh, its brutal, and when two tribes go to war generally one of them gets brutalized and losing their ships without firing effective shots back. All the greatest victories the Star Fraction ever achieved in space generally came from surprise attacks, flanking manoeuvres’, cunning employment of tech and frankly brutalizing enemies, putting bags over their heads and kicking them mercilessly until they stop moving.

In some campaigns the height of our achievement is to project an unscoutable blacktops hotdrop of 20 bombers to a cloaked neutral covops scout right into the middle of a ratting anomaly where an enemy Paladin was making isk. And that isn’t a fight – its the New Eden equivalent of putting a cyanide-laced pillow over an old man’s face in the hospital then stabbing him twelve times for good measure. But that’s war. Its brutal and nasty and its challenging yes, but does it really give us everything we want from propaganda and publicity? Does it get us close to the measure of our foes and look them in the eye before the blade goes in? I’m inclined to think not.

You see duelling traditionally has also been used for other purposes in war. I remember way back when JF got involved in a lopsided empire conflict with Forsaken Empire in the first year of the Diaspora. They were flying Battleships, we were flying cruise missile Breachers. We skirmished up and down the spacelines losing frigates, occasionally taking down a battleship, neither side really got anywhere. CAOD was full of imprecations and boasts and insults and anger but it was clear the war couldn’t rewally end. So in the end we settled it with a clash of champions. Jade vs the FE champion in OBE system. With representatives of both sides looking on we fought a spirited single combat (that I luckily won) and the shook hands and ended the war. It turned a bitter business with no clear end or resolution into a climax and endpoint that allowed both sides to move on. In that instance it was a positive thing for all involved.

And this theme is a recurring one. Often when I’ve been involved in disputes that have gotten bitter on the IGS/CAOD and people are coughing out streams of vitriol about the cowardice of the enemy being logoff/dockmonkey/speedkiter/cloakfiend/jumpwanker/blah/insert x thing you don’t like –ites you’ll find that two pilots from either side of the fence can agree to fight a single combat and restore a little dignity and modicum of mutual respect to proceedings because pretty much everyone of character tends to respect the mythology of the duel in their secret heart however much they might deny it in public. It does demonstrate courage and the willingness to fight without overwhelming odds and tricky sleight-of-hand finesse. It says “I am not scared of you.” It signals “this is a captain with the backbone to fight.”

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#22 - 2011-11-14 13:23:40 UTC
My cousin once fought a duel like this with Garreck of the CVA during our Terminus-Est campaign. The IGS was aflame with the usual froth and in the middle of the mind-numbingly boring quotefests on the nitty gritty nonsense or who was NRDS and who wasn’t Garreck and Jasmine agreed to duel.

And what a duel it was. They fought for almost an hour in Providence while both sides respected the sanctity of the fighting and let the combatants be. Garreck was using a dampening sentry drone Dominix and Jasmine was using a mwd rail megathron and it turned into a cat and mouse game as both ships burned their cap charges and nursed their wounded systems to full effect. In the end it was a stalemate and the fight ended exchange with words of mutual respect because in both captains had the courage to fight, both had the bravery to trust each other to keep the terms, both had the dignity to accept the outcome and both had the civility to acknowledge such on the summit afterwards. It was an entirely positive note against the backdrop of an extremely hard fought war.

But is this really anachronistic in New Eden? I say no it isn’t: Take the alliance tournament; billions watch alliances fight (mostly) honourable combats with even sides to determine the victors in the greatest spectator sport in the cluster. I doubt there are many pilots in New Eden who don’t know the legend of 10 thoraxes against Band of Brothers. That was a duel of sorts, even fight, rag-tag anarchists in a non-territorial alliance against the greatest imperial power of the age and it was only possible because it was a ritualized combat with 10 pilots a side.

So I say duelling is right there in the public consciousness and its there to stay.

But why challenge? (Why not just wardec and get on with the murder) Well, it’s an opportunity to show courage and character in a way that is impossible to deny. Often in our wars (SF) it gets to the point where our enemy has gone to ground, refusing to undock, trapped in a station etc etc. They will generally complain about the numbers, our tactics, imbalance of forces etc etc. There will be narkiness about out of corp logistics, docking games, cloaked (because of) falcons etc. And the mood will be sour. So we’ll say: “How about we withdraw from the station and let you fight a 1v1 duel against one of our pilots?” From our perspective we want to destroy another enemy ship of course. But it also demonstrates that we don’t need superior numbers and massive firepower to win. From their perspective it gets them an actual fight not just dead immediately on undock or doomed to spend the evening staring at the captain’s quarter’s holoscreen while the rest of their corp hide.

In short it gives an opportunity to fight rather than complaining about other people’s tactics.
And the outcome is almost always good regardless of the winner. I can’t remember a duel I’ve fought (of the 20-30 odd I’ve fought over the years) that ended in bitterness and upset no matter who won it. Generally we talk afterwards, discuss the tactics and the outcome, shake hands and move on. I take it as sign that we’re pilots of note with passion and courage – even on opposite sides of the ideological dive between freespacer and territorialist there can be some respect between warriors.

But it does suggest a darker element to the challenge which I’ll describe to you now:

I know (as a captain) that fighting a single combat is a scary thing to do. Just as fighting in the alliance tournament is a terrifying business from start to finish. Because as an individual you are stepping up to a moment of full consequence, there will be no excuses if you lose, you just lost. Nobody else to blame, no corp to hide behind, no IGS to post evasions and manipulations and justifications and nonsense to cloak one’s failure: No, just you and your opponent and the verdict of single combat. This is mind-numbingly horrible to anyone with a genuine hatred of an opponent because to lose such a fight is absolutely unthinkable. And it is something you must think of.

I’ve never challenged anyone to a starship duel without asking myself “can I stand to lose this” and it’s the most important question of all really. Because if you enter such a contest without being able to lose it and carry on then you have already lost through nerves and pressure and ego crisis really.
And whatever anybody says there is no such thing as a foregone conclusion in a properly fought duel. Anything can happen. I once took on a guy during the GNW (Great Northern War Year2 Diaspora) who was an epically-skilled Apocalypse pilot with maximum skills, experienced crew and a terrifying reputation. I flew a scorpion with all Radar jammers and webs and jammed him throughout and took 10 mins to kill him with my pathetic missiles. Result, but it could happen as easily the other way around.

I had a rematch against a different target from the same corporation two weeks later and tried the same tactic and this time I found myself facing an FOF equipped passive shield tanked Raven. Oops! That was embarrassing. But it happens.

But that’s the thing about the duel and it’s what raises duellists head and shoulders above those who are disinclined to duel. It’s about facing the fear and entering a contest where they “might lose” and going ahead to fight anyway. It divides pilots between those who are prepared to fight combats where they might not win and those who prefer not to fight at all if there is a chance of failure. Makes a strong contrast between the risk-lovers and the risk-averse and cannot help influence the reputations of both.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#23 - 2011-11-14 13:24:50 UTC

In New Eden you cannot really bankrupt an enemy out of space (well not anymore). You can kill any number of ships and purge entire colonies of skilled crewmen, you can camp people in the stations, you can infiltrate and steal from their hangers. But you cannot promote a reputation for courage and leadership purely by doing this.

But when you are prepared to stand up and challenge another to fight an even fight in a ritualized spaceship duel and suddenly we are on different ground with entirely higher stakes. If they refuse, well they can be accused of cowardice. If they accept (and cheat) good heavens, not only are they are coward but a bounder too! If they accept (and lose gracefully) well, you’ve actually given them a bit of reputation. And if they beat you in the duel, well, they’ve won something in the realm of reputation that cannot be bought with isk at all and must be treasured above everything.

So I think it helps to see the duel in the context of gambling with reputation. It transcends isk and possessions and gets involved purely in the realm of personal standings, honour and name against the backdrop of the capsuleer Disapora in New Eden.

And for a leader of a corporation or alliance it’s a wonderful opportunity to add a bit of colour and reputation to your leadership style. I acknowledge that some may want to promote a reputation for ninja-style never fight a fair fight cunning and betrayals etc and that’s fair enough. But for a leader who likes to stand up in the stirrups and charge the horse straight at the enemy ranks and dare the rest of his unit to keep up if they can ... well, a reputation for courage can be a great motivator because people always find it easier to follow a leader who is prepared to do themselves what they expect of others.


The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#24 - 2011-11-14 13:29:33 UTC
Everyone who knows me knows how far I like to push my own limits, and the limits of my vessel. I do it to force myself to improve, to
force the decisions I must make during the heat of a dogfight to achieve automaticy. Do I have a sense of "honor"? I dont know... when that fight starts, I will do anything in my power to beat my opponent(s). I would cause your neocom to crash and your pod to spontaneously implode if I could. I am fighting you to destroy you. Period.

However, I also have no use for cowards. If someone is unwilling or unable to face me, alone, then you have a choice to make; seek further training, or sit in the corner and allow someone of courage to take your place in the battle line. By being willingly less skilled than your opponent, you are handicapping your own efforts. I hold all of my pilots to an incredibly high standard, when theyre solo I expect them to pull off the "impossible". When you get half a dozen pilots like that in a fleet, magic happens.

Yesterday, I fought (after some initial miscommunication) a member of the Empire who, while still my enemy, has at least earned my respect. This is someone who, were our nations not at war, I would likely be friends with. We seek out those who we feel are similar to ourselves, and a pilot willing to push their limits happens to click with me, regardless of the flag they fly under.

Sad, really. The people who decry the behaviour of pirates, while in the service of the various militias or nation-based corporations, are the very people who dishonor 1v1s and scream about how "reputation dosent matter". So... a pirate's reputation means more to him, than the rep of someone fighting "the good fight" means to them?

Color me puzzled.

And yes, I frequently face the most skilled opponents, and the most "honorable", if we wish to use that term, who are members of pirate organizations. There are exceptions on both sides, of course, but the ratio is staggering. My reputation is everything to me. I am proud of what I have achieved, and proud of my right to wear marks that tell of those achievements. I understand not everyone agrees, and that is their right. I have no delusions; my nation is fighting to defeat the Empire. I will do anything I must to achieve that end... other than destroying my own reputation. I havent had a 1v1 "dishonored" in the militia yet. But Ill be damned if i havent had a few dozen "accidentally interrupted".... often by fleets of BCs or BS.

I leave you to determine how many were actually "accidental".

Avlynka Surionen, Teraa Matar

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#25 - 2011-11-14 18:27:32 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Both are taking part in a ritual that’s older than spaceships and modern weaponry, which goes back to the nature of leadership and reputation itself. Why would men follow anyone who lacked the courage of their convictions in this way? It’s a primal question.



And I think this sums up the importance of honor even in this age of combat pretty well. Thank you.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#26 - 2011-11-14 19:00:29 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Everyone who knows me knows how far I like to push my own limits, and the limits of my vessel. I do it to force myself to improve, to
force the decisions I must make during the heat of a dogfight to achieve automaticy. Do I have a sense of "honor"? I dont know... when that fight starts, I will do anything in my power to beat my opponent(s). I would cause your neocom to crash and your pod to spontaneously implode if I could. I am fighting you to destroy you. Period.


Does this mean gross use of electronics warfare is fine? Heheh!

Ava Starfire wrote:

However, I also have no use for cowards. If someone is unwilling or unable to face me, alone, then you have a choice to make; seek further training, or sit in the corner and allow someone of courage to take your place in the battle line. By being willingly less skilled than your opponent, you are handicapping your own efforts.

Which is why flying solo or in incredibly small squads tends to breed skilled pilots. I'm absolutely with you on this; anyone can sit in a cloud of Drakes and spew missiles at a handful of targets. But who can, in turn take down a Drake with a Wolf? Not many!


Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#27 - 2011-11-14 19:09:03 UTC
All of this is highly situational, and specific to the people facing off.

I've been beaten down by cheap shots and smacktalk with some people, only to share a drink with them and laugh about it later on that night.

I've also soundly defeated some with class and 'dignity', only to feel terrible about it later anyways.

Katrina Oniseki

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#28 - 2011-11-14 19:23:15 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:

Which is why flying solo or in incredibly small squads tends to breed skilled pilots. I'm absolutely with you on this; anyone can sit in a cloud of Drakes and spew missiles at a handful of targets. But who can, in turn take down a Drake with a Wolf? Not many!




Quantity has a quality of its own.


Sabik now, Sabik forever

Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#29 - 2011-11-14 19:36:08 UTC
*sigh*

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#30 - 2011-11-14 19:47:02 UTC
This has got me thinking:

Perhaps time for us to propose and organize a proper dueling society?

I could foresee a corporation dedicated to nothing else; the managing and administering of capsuleer duels, or perhaps small group combat (2v2, etc). They would act as a neutral party, determining rules, verifying ship loadouts, administrating gambling activity, etc, and act as a 'certified' arbiter of duel results.

This would certainly remove much of the 'he said / she said' duel results we are often subjected to.

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#31 - 2011-11-14 19:49:55 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
This has got me thinking:

Perhaps time for us to propose and organize a proper dueling society?

I could foresee a corporation dedicated to nothing else; the managing and administering of capsuleer duels, or perhaps small group combat (2v2, etc). They would act as a neutral party, determining rules, verifying ship loadouts, administrating gambling activity, etc, and act as a 'certified' arbiter of duel results.

This would certainly remove much of the 'he said / she said' duel results we are often subjected to.


At least until accusations of match rigging and corruption surface.

Katrina Oniseki

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#32 - 2011-11-14 19:52:38 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Silas Vitalia wrote:
This has got me thinking:

Perhaps time for us to propose and organize a proper dueling society?

I could foresee a corporation dedicated to nothing else; the managing and administering of capsuleer duels, or perhaps small group combat (2v2, etc). They would act as a neutral party, determining rules, verifying ship loadouts, administrating gambling activity, etc, and act as a 'certified' arbiter of duel results.

This would certainly remove much of the 'he said / she said' duel results we are often subjected to.


At least until accusations of match rigging and corruption surface.



I'll refer to my initial reply to the thread. A sufficient reputation for incorruptibility would mitigate that issue.

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#33 - 2011-11-14 20:00:53 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Which is why flying solo or in incredibly small squads tends to breed skilled pilots
In my experience, self-professed "highly skilled pilots" are about the worst pilots you can get into a fleet. Not only do they do about as many mistakes as the average rookie, contrary to the average rookie they also think so highly of themselves that they tend to ignore advice and refuse to learn.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#34 - 2011-11-14 20:15:15 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
This has got me thinking:

Perhaps time for us to propose and organize a proper dueling society?

I could foresee a corporation dedicated to nothing else; the managing and administering of capsuleer duels, or perhaps small group combat (2v2, etc). They would act as a neutral party, determining rules, verifying ship loadouts, administrating gambling activity, etc, and act as a 'certified' arbiter of duel results.

This would certainly remove much of the 'he said / she said' duel results we are often subjected to.


This is actually a pretty good idea! Of course measures would have to be put in place that the ships are manned only by the capsuleers in question, lest blood be spilled needlessly.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#35 - 2011-11-14 20:16:37 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
In my experience, self-professed "highly skilled pilots" are about the worst pilots you can get into a fleet. Not only do they do about as many mistakes as the average rookie, contrary to the average rookie they also think so highly of themselves that they tend to ignore advice and refuse to learn.


Such a quality is a result of lack of humility, really. That's a separate issue, however.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#36 - 2011-11-14 20:27:36 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:

This is actually a pretty good idea! Of course measures would have to be put in place that the ships are manned only by the capsuleers in question, lest blood be spilled needlessly.


Nonsense.

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#37 - 2011-11-14 20:34:58 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Rek Jaiga wrote:

This is actually a pretty good idea! Of course measures would have to be put in place that the ships are manned only by the capsuleers in question, lest blood be spilled needlessly.


Nonsense.


Explain. When two individuals duel with swords, there are only two candidates for death; this should remain so with capsuleer-versus-capsuleer duels in such a structured environment, yes?
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#38 - 2011-11-14 20:52:33 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:

Explain. When two individuals duel with swords, there are only two candidates for death; this should remain so with capsuleer-versus-capsuleer duels in such a structured environment, yes?


My honor is worth taking the lives of others, and worth the lives of others dying in its defense.

I'm willing to kill to preserve it. Complete strangers and innocents alike.

I'm willing to have thousands of my crew members die violent deaths to see it preserved, if necessary.

Think of it this way; there are literally billions of humans who gladly and daily put their lives at risk to defend the honor of their leaders and betters. Kings, Emperors, Presidents, CEO's, Generals, etc, all have legions of followers that willingly sacrifice in their names. Why should this be any different for us?

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Sovai Elaaren
KABS Deep Recon Unit
#39 - 2011-11-14 21:03:55 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:


My honor is worth taking the lives of others, and worth the lives of others dying in its defense.

I'm willing to kill to preserve it. Complete strangers and innocents alike.

I'm willing to have thousands of my crew members die violent deaths to see it preserved, if necessary.

Think of it this way; there are literally billions of humans who gladly and daily put their lives at risk to defend the honor of their leaders and betters. Kings, Emperors, Presidents, CEO's, Generals, etc, all have legions of followers that willingly sacrifice in their names. Why should this be any different for us?



Now this is nonsense. You sound more like a sociopath than a leader worthy of the devotion of their followers.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#40 - 2011-11-14 21:09:40 UTC
Sovai Elaaren wrote:


Now this is nonsense. You sound more like a sociopath than a leader worthy of the devotion of their followers.


And tell me of this strange fantasy land you occupy in which you aren't already daily sending hundreds and thousands of people to their deaths, both in enemy ships and your own losses?


Sabik now, Sabik forever