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Liberalism and Adversity
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Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#41 - 2013-09-06 17:05:01 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
Orphaned kittens!? Cry

-Eran


I'm sure somewhere in the Federation there exists an organization offering to send vagrant pussies to a good home.

For a nominal donation.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#42 - 2013-09-06 17:16:31 UTC
I would gladly provide a home for these furry pussies if needed.

Of course when they become full-grown I will be recycling them to catfood...I hate cats. At least they will not shed a furry tear over the course of their young lives as I would give them plenty of love and care, as would the crew of my ships. Maybe one for each man and woman could be a purrfect way to increase morale.

I'd have to pry them away after a couple years but I'm sure an easy way could be found. I'll also need a skilled skinner and tailor to make me a few nice furry coats by which I can always remember the softness of their pussies.

-Eran
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#43 - 2013-09-06 17:28:55 UTC
I quite like cats myself though, Mr. Mintor.

I certainly feel no need to make a coat out of the pedigree Achuran shorthair puss I'm currently stroking at hand.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-09-06 17:30:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
- Religious groups don't typically make a lot of money, yet still have regular expenses, taxes would only further these financial burdens.

- Not only do religious groups have little money to spend, but they typically spend that money on charity work and donations, making them akin to a non-profit charity organization, which are also exempted from tax.

- Taxes have been used many times to control people. If a government wants to limit and destroy a religious group, all they need to do is increase taxes or create some new tax. It's been done many times against political groups and businesses.

- If Religious groups are burdened by taxes, they can no longer operate as non-profit organizations. This means they might be forced to charge money for the sole purpose of making a profit. They act less like charity groups and more like businesses and political organizations, something that religion should never step into the realms of.

- Taxes are not a public fund for the greater good. They are merely how the government makes money. How they spend that money is entirely decided by the government and to a lesser extent, voters. A religious group, already struggling to make ends meet can pay all their taxes and never see the benefit of them, especially considering most voters are secular or even outright anti-religious in general.


1: If an organisation is that incompetent that they can't balance their budget and afford to pay a percentage of their income from donations in tax, then frankly I'd much rather see them fold and be replaced by somebody capable.

2: In addition to the above, there is no reason charities have to be non-profit. Anything can be made profitable, or at least break-even sustainable. I'd argue that this is better, in fact, on the grounds that a charity which turns a profit then has more money in the end to do more charitable work and so on. There is a reason that "not-for-profit" is synonymous with "foolish" in Napanii.

3: Adapt or die, that's the way of the universe. if a charity has succeeded in making a government want to destroy them then A) I have to ask why the government has to resort to such a labyrinthine and inefficient method of taxing them out of existence and B) what the hell were they doing that stepped on a government's toes? also if there is any merit to Democracy at all, surely "you can't get away with nuking charities via unjustifiable tax hikes" has to be among them?

4: so?

5: That's what taxes are FOR - to provide beneficial services that the ordinary citizen is unable to provide for themselves. I know we don't work that way here in the State, where the corporation provides those services for its own benefit as an extension of benefiting the employees, but the entire point of them is that they pay for things that are beneficial to the common good of all citizens. Are you suggesting that a tax-charging government is effectively the same as a for-profit megacorporation?

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-09-06 18:01:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Stitcher wrote:


1: If an organisation is that incompetent that they can't balance their budget and afford to pay a percentage of their income from donations in tax, then frankly I'd much rather see them fold and be replaced by somebody capable.

2: In addition to the above, there is no reason charities have to be non-profit. Anything can be made profitable, or at least break-even sustainable. I'd argue that this is better, in fact, on the grounds that a charity which turns a profit then has more money in the end to do more charitable work and so on. There is a reason that "not-for-profit" is synonymous with "foolish" in Napanii.

3: Adapt or die, that's the way of the universe. if a charity has succeeded in making a government want to destroy them then A) I have to ask why the government has to resort to such a labyrinthine and inefficient method of taxing them out of existence and B) what the hell were they doing that stepped on a government's toes? also if there is any merit to Democracy at all, surely "you can't get away with nuking charities via unjustifiable tax hikes" has to be among them?

4: so?

5: That's what taxes are FOR - to provide beneficial services that the ordinary citizen is unable to provide for themselves. I know we don't work that way here in the State, where the corporation provides those services for its own benefit as an extension of benefiting the employees, but the entire point of them is that they pay for things that are beneficial to the common good of all citizens. Are you suggesting that a tax-charging government is effectively the same as a for-profit megacorporation?


1. You still fail to realize that these religious groups don't have an income. They only get small donations that are just enough to keep things running. Most of these donations are just pocket change. The bills aren't cheap. Taxes would make paying bills difficult when they can barely pay the bills.

2. Most religious groups and charities are break-even sustainable. Add taxes to that and they aren't, it's that simple. You can't be as charitable when you are for profit because you need to return that profit to your investors. If you're giving away your profits to protect endangered holy sites or something then you will quickly be out of business. The reason why religious groups and charity's are sustainable without taxes is because they were never in business to begin with.

3. Charities probably wouldn't get the governments wrath, religious groups would. This never happens in the Federation because your religious beliefs are protected. If you are recognized as a religion by the government, they have to protect you. Simple as that.

4. Whenever religion starts stepping into the realms of business and politics the religion is skewed and corrupted. It's happened every time it's been tried in the history of man.

5. Believing in a so called "greater good" is horribly naive. No one does anything for the good of the whole, they do it to advance their own interests. Spending tax money is no exception. Taxes can be put to helping the general populace with the construction of roads and space elevators, however they can also be used to pay politicians and continue wars in distant lands that tax payers will never see the benefit of. The reason why we vote on what to spend our tax money on is because there is no such thing as a "greater good". Spending tax money on one thing means that something else doesn't get the funding it needs. The belief that everything can benefit everyone is held by those who have no grasp of how the world really works. Someone's success is always at the expense of another persons failure. It's not possible for everyone to win.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:


I'm unsure what point you are seeking to make. Are you making some kind of negative moral judgement on having access to offshore bank accounts in the State in order to evade taxes? .


Yes I am. If you have to pay taxes, you should pay them, not skip around them. If a religious group is required to pay taxes, they may not be able to stay running. Going over the border to get funding is something that we Gallenteans feel shouldn't have to be necessary regardless of whether or not it causes negative side effects.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#46 - 2013-09-06 18:26:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Eran Mintor
I have been working in some not-for-profits in between my business planet-side for the past few months; I can say that there is some confusion here as to what exactly they are...

What was once called "non-profit organization" is now more accurately referred to as 'not-for-profit,' meaning they don't do their business for profit, but they have to make some revenue to cover expenses. They just can't claim a profit at the end of the fiscal year. This can be done in a myriad of ways depending on the goals of the 'not-for-profit.'

Lately, I've been spending some time in so-called "Soup Kitchens" in impoverished Republic space. Donations are indeed a huge part of how they get by, especially food donations, but they will still accrue revenue by doing other services, like food delivery to elderly and disabled, or by using the stock of food they don't use in their daily operations for "food drives," selling tickets and such to raise more money.

This whole talk of taxes is kind of ironic, actually. A lot of not-for-profits get government grants which are financed by taxes-religious groups included. A great example of this are hospitals, which get a great deal of money from governments yet also charge an arm and a leg to repair your broken...arm... Most financial donations don't actually go towards the charities final goals, but rather towards keeping the organization afloat. The employees aren't doing this for free (though there are many un-paid volunteers usually) and they still have to pay for rent, equipment, and other expenses.

Not-for-profits generally do still pay taxes, though.

And they all are a business in one aspect or another.

-Eran
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#47 - 2013-09-06 18:26:29 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

Yes I am. If you have to pay taxes, you should pay them, not skip around them. If a religious group is required to pay taxes, they may not be able to stay running. Going over the border to get funding is something that we Gallenteans feel shouldn't have to be necessary regardless of whether or not it causes negative side effects.


I would say taxes are a Federal problem then. If Federal citizens don't enjoy paying them, then as I said, there are numerous options in the State to ensure the Senate does not gain access to an individual's hard earned wealth.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#48 - 2013-09-06 18:28:49 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
I quite like cats myself though, Mr. Mintor.

I certainly feel no need to make a coat out of the pedigree Achuran shorthair puss I'm currently stroking at hand.


What about when it dies? Are you going to stuff it and anchor it to the headrest of your chair? I've always found taxidermy to be creepy...

-Eran
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-09-06 18:34:47 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
1. You still fail to realize that these religious groups don't have an income. They only get small donations that are just enough to keep things running. Most of these donations are just pocket change. The bills aren't cheap. Taxes would make paying bills difficult when they can barely pay the bills.

2. Most religious groups and charities are break-even sustainable. Add taxes to that and they aren't, it's that simple. You can't be as charitable when you are for profit because you need to return that profit to your investors. If you're giving away your profits to protect endangered holy sites or something then you will quickly be out of business. The reason why religious groups and charity's are sustainable without taxes is because they were never in business to begin with.

3. Charities probably wouldn't get the governments wrath, religious groups would. This never happens in the Federation because your religious beliefs are protected. If you are recognized as a religion by the government, they have to protect you. Simple as that.

4. Whenever religion starts stepping into the realms of business and politics the religion is skewed and corrupted. It's happened every time it's been tried in the history of man.

5. Believing in a so called "greater good" is horribly naive. No one does anything for the good of the whole, they do it to advance their own interests. Spending tax money is no exception. Taxes can be put to helping the general populace with the construction of roads and space elevators, however they can also be used to pay politicians and continue wars in distant lands that tax payers will never see the benefit of. The reason why we vote on what to spend our tax money on is because there is no such thing as a "greater good". Spending tax money on one thing means that something else doesn't get the funding it needs. The belief that everything can benefit everyone is held by those who have no grasp of how the world really works. Someone's success is always at the expense of another persons failure. It's not possible for everyone to win.


1: fedo gas. Have you SEEN how big some of these churches are? I'm sure those big megacity megachurches can afford to be taxed.

2: see above. Some of these things make money hand over fist. if some of their provincial brethren are running at a loss, I'm sure the big metropolitan houses of worship can aid their family in faith.

3: So you're saying that the government HAS to protect religions, and in return religions are not required to pay tax? I know which side's getting the better end of that deal. Also, the existence of that government protection completely negates your point about tax being abused to step on them. They're either protected, or they aren't. As it is, they're protected at no benefit to the government. That's a very long way from being a fair deal.

4: So?

5: Your attitude is equally naive. There is such a thing as altruism and some people are motivated by it, or at least by the idea of it. If the people who assume power in your society are not motivated by it, that points to there being something deeply broken in your social model. In any case, burrowing down into this point here:

Quote:
Spending tax money on one thing means that something else doesn't get the funding it needs


That's a situation which would be alleviated by having more tax revenue. Which makes your decision to use it as a point against taxing religious organisations highly questionable.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#50 - 2013-09-06 18:36:41 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:


What about when it dies? Are you going to stuff it and anchor it to the headrest of your chair? I've always found taxidermy to be creepy...

-Eran


Protein cubes.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#51 - 2013-09-06 18:39:00 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
I quite like cats myself though, Mr. Mintor.

I certainly feel no need to make a coat out of the pedigree Achuran shorthair puss I'm currently stroking at hand.


Gesakaarin-haani's love of Achuran shorthairs is fairly profound. I sometimes worry that she'd come for the lovely black shorthair I have in my quarters. Fortunately, though, it's a bit of a mongrel.

That said, it does seem this thread has exploded; I'll try to catch up and explore the original topic once I've done some reading.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#52 - 2013-09-06 18:57:21 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Eran Mintor wrote:


What about when it dies? Are you going to stuff it and anchor it to the headrest of your chair? I've always found taxidermy to be creepy...

-Eran


Protein cubes.


When this happens, please send a cube or two my way. I've always wondered what Achuran shorthair pussies taste like...

-Eran
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-09-06 20:09:29 UTC
Confliktus wrote:

And how many assets have so far been recovered Citizen Kim ?

You can see our active progress in the Faction Warfare statistics tab (it should be available on any Caldari station). Systems, that are displayed as blue have been already recovered. And those systems, that are red (occupied by the Federation), are to be recovered.

Confliktus wrote:

Diana Kim wrote:

Open borders? With something like Federation borders are better to be shut, to prevent gallentean filth from leaking.


And just how are you going to achieve this? By building a space wall around the Caldari - Gallente border? By blockading the Gallente? Tell us, how many Products from Gallentean origin are sold to the State.. on a daily basis?

How much impact would an embargo have on our own economy?

All gallentean goods are second grade, just like their peoples. They can't produce quality goods, and we don't need their odd jobs.

Confliktus wrote:

An Isolationist politic will only benefit your enemies Citizen Kim, why not outsmart and outpace them? Why not do it the Caldari way? By challenging them at market level and outgrowing their exports in comparison to ours.

Scam and Fraud you will always have ( unfortunately ) , not even the State can claim 100% control over all its assets.

Im not talking about isolating from other entities, but rather from a single insignificant and rotten one.

Confliktus wrote:

Efficient management is done with the head not with the crack of a whip,

I have no idea what are you talking about. Care to explain? Since when we started to discuss Amarr customs?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-09-06 22:12:46 UTC
Stitcher wrote:


1: fedo gas. Have you SEEN how big some of these churches are? I'm sure those big megacity megachurches can afford to be taxed.

2: see above. Some of these things make money hand over fist. if some of their provincial brethren are running at a loss, I'm sure the big metropolitan houses of worship can aid their family in faith.

3: So you're saying that the government HAS to protect religions, and in return religions are not required to pay tax? I know which side's getting the better end of that deal. Also, the existence of that government protection completely negates your point about tax being abused to step on them. They're either protected, or they aren't. As it is, they're protected at no benefit to the government. That's a very long way from being a fair deal.

4: So?

5: Your attitude is equally naive. There is such a thing as altruism and some people are motivated by it, or at least by the idea of it. If the people who assume power in your society are not motivated by it, that points to there being something deeply broken in your social model. In any case, burrowing down into this point here:

Quote:
Spending tax money on one thing means that something else doesn't get the funding it needs


That's a situation which would be alleviated by having more tax revenue. Which makes your decision to use it as a point against taxing religious organisations highly questionable.


1. The bigger the church the bigger the expenses. Basic economics.

2. See above, bigger isn't always better. The larger churches certainly make more money, but they don't have enough surplus to assist other churches in need. There are exceptions of course, but it's not as simple as you like to make it out to be.

3. It's not supposed to be a fair deal. The government and citizens of the Federation are perfectly fine with sacrificing a little extra to guarantee the Freedom of Religion. If you don't want to you can vote for candidates that want that changed or live somewhere else.

4. It's bad. History has proven it time and time again. Please let me know if I'm not being clear.

5. Altruism has defined the Federation for many centuries now. It's not the same concept as doing something for "the greater good". We help the people that need help because we want to help them, we don't do it for some higher and vaguely defined purpose. When we accept a Matari refugee into our society it's not to better the rest of humanity. He needs help, and we can help him. When a church is burned to the ground by hateful people, we help build it back up. Not for ourselves or for the rest of the world, but because that group of people need help at this very moment and we can provide it.

If you need a concept of a "greater good" to justify helping a person in need, then your heart isn't in the right place. You help people because they need help. You do things because it's the right thing to do. If you somehow manage to further the advancement of the human race, wonderful! But that shouldn't be your goal.

Also, increasing taxes doesn't necessarily increase tax revenue. Economies have collapsed time and time again because people believed it was that simple. It's simply impossible to afford to pay for everything that everyone wants. If the military wants more guns to keep fighting, then the hospitals are going to get less medicine that they need to cure people. Every government system has to prioritize which things are the most important to spend money on.

Put it this way, the current ways the government has been running our nation has been working for hundreds of years. Exempting churches from taxation and allowing a free press has never hurt the Federation. If it has, the cases are so minor and insignificant that they have long since been forgotten. The Federation has overall been getting more prosperous and more powerful as time goes on, and nothing suggests that the trend will change, at least that we could forsee. If you disagree with the way we handle things, that's perfectly fine but it's impossible to deny that it's been working out rather well for us so far.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-09-06 22:22:35 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

Yes I am. If you have to pay taxes, you should pay them, not skip around them. If a religious group is required to pay taxes, they may not be able to stay running. Going over the border to get funding is something that we Gallenteans feel shouldn't have to be necessary regardless of whether or not it causes negative side effects.


I would say taxes are a Federal problem then. If Federal citizens don't enjoy paying them, then as I said, there are numerous options in the State to ensure the Senate does not gain access to an individual's hard earned wealth.


If our people have to turn to another nation to protect their wealth, then we have failed. Which is why I would advise my fellow citizens to vote for lower taxes the next election season.

Diana Kim wrote:

All gallentean goods are second grade, just like their peoples. They can't produce quality goods, and we don't need their odd jobs.


Which is why our drones, automated systems, and artificial intelligence are the best in the cluster, our film and music industry is unmatched by anyone else, our medical technology is saving millions of lives, and why our food and drinks are the most popular across the galaxy, especially our soda!

Not to mention inventing that whole faster than light communications thing that enables you to actually read this within fractions of fractions of a second.

Each of the big four indisputably excel in many areas over the other nations. These are just a few of the things we Gallenteans are considered by most to be the best at.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-09-06 22:37:27 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
1. The bigger the church the bigger the expenses. Basic economics.

2. See above, bigger isn't always better. The larger churches certainly make more money, but they don't have enough surplus to assist other churches in need. There are exceptions of course, but it's not as simple as you like to make it out to be.

3. It's not supposed to be a fair deal. The government and citizens of the Federation are perfectly fine with sacrificing a little extra to guarantee the Freedom of Religion. If you don't want to you can vote for candidates that want that changed or live somewhere else.

4. It's bad. History has proven it time and time again. Please let me know if I'm not being clear.

5. [snip for space].


1: By that logic, it's impossible for megacorporations to turn a profit.

2: I think you are factually wrong about this. Some of these things attract tens of thousands of worshippers to every service and take substantial portions of their income. They have money to spare.

3: and since when does freedom of religion require a raw deal for somebody? You can protect religion without giving them special privileges. We do: "Worship whatever or however the hell you like, you'll get treated the same as everyone else." Why should merely believing something bring with it an exemption from a public duty? Why should being a social organisation lay upon governments the burden to offer them extra protection AND remove from the organization the burden of reciprocation? To me, that idea of receiving a benefit without providing some appropriate payment seems deeply unethical.

4: You've still yet to adequately explain WHY it's a bad thing, or in what way. You have simply asserted that it is a bad thing.

5: Speaking as a Caldari, I find more or less everything about this sentiment to be either morally or intellectually moribund. There IS no greater moral good than that which benefits the collective. The greater good contains within it lesser individual goods - work towards the former, accomplish the latter automatically. You're not seeing the forest for the trees.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Ailer Stane
Doomheim
#57 - 2013-09-06 22:41:45 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
There are no 'Caldari' within the Federation.

There may be some descended from Caldari, but to be Caldari is to be a citizen of the State.

A frightening mindset that allows such logic.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#58 - 2013-09-06 22:52:04 UTC
Ailer Stane wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
There are no 'Caldari' within the Federation.

There may be some descended from Caldari, but to be Caldari is to be a citizen of the State.

A frightening mindset that allows such logic.


Not really. The mindset is that Caldari is a way of life, not simply a race or common ancestry. Those who no longer follow that way are no longer considered to be Caldari by their counterparts. It is similar to what many Matari believe. However, I would argue in both cases that you don't need to be a citizen of either empire to still follow their ways, and therefore be considered a Caldari or Matari.


Also, I don't understand why you boys are still chirping on about religious organizations making money and taxes. I thought I made it quite clear earlier that all not-for-profit organizations are still considered business who also pay taxes, they just can't claim a profit at the end of the year...

-Eran
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-09-06 23:03:33 UTC
Stitcher wrote:


1: By that logic, it's impossible for megacorporations to turn a profit.

2: I think you are factually wrong about this. Some of these things attract tens of thousands of worshippers to every service and take substantial portions of their income. They have money to spare.

3: and since when does freedom of religion require a raw deal for somebody? You can protect religion without giving them special privileges. We do: "Worship whatever or however the hell you like, you'll get treated the same as everyone else." Why should merely believing something bring with it an exemption from a public duty? Why should being a social organisation lay upon governments the burden to offer them extra protection AND remove from the organization the burden of reciprocation? To me, that idea of receiving a benefit without providing some appropriate payment seems deeply unethical.

4: You've still yet to adequately explain WHY it's a bad thing, or in what way. You have simply asserted that it is a bad thing.

5: Speaking as a Caldari, I find more or less everything about this sentiment to be either morally or intellectually moribund. There IS no greater moral good than that which benefits the collective. The greater good contains within it lesser individual goods - work towards the former, accomplish the latter automatically. You're not seeing the forest for the trees.


1. Not necessarily. The goal of a Megacorp is to make a profit. Churches, even the super large ones, don't have that goal. Also, keep in mind that not ever person who attends service makes a donation, or a donation large enough to cover expenses. There are certainly enough to break even and probably a little more, but not much.

2. As I've said, there are a few exceptions. But the mega churches and members of these churches do not make up the majority of those in the Federation or the cluster for that matter. Most churches are strictly local and attract no more than a thousand people for each service.

3. It's not so easy to say that here in the Federation. Keep in mind that we are, overall, more diverse than any other Empires. The "Gallente" in the Gallente Federation only make up 32% of the total population. With so many different cultures and religions, often times those that are in direct conflict with each other, we need to take extra steps to make sure that people can follow whatever religion they believe in without worrying about anything bad happening. You've certainly seen the reports of discrimination against Minmatar. Imagine how much worse it would be if we had the same attitude about religion that the State has. Things may be so simple in the State, but they are a bit more complex in the Federation. Also, please don't interpret that I believe simplicity is a bad thing.

4. I actually have several times in this thread and repeating myself has gotten to be quite tiresome. Look back through the thread please.

5. What good is a forest if all of the trees are dead? What good is a machine if all of the parts are rusty? What good is a meal if all of the ingredients are spoiled? How could you work towards a greater good if all of the "lesser" goods are never completed? You can't build a tower starting from the top floor.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#60 - 2013-09-06 23:04:29 UTC
I give up.

-Eran