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Inflation

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Adunh Slavy
#41 - 2013-09-05 16:40:13 UTC
Diska Eamod wrote:

One can not pay market fees with Trit, therefore Trit is not money. With 12 trillion Trit and 0 isk, you will lose sovereignty.



"It did not gain this status due to evolution, but because CCP has imposed the rule on us via the market interface."

Thought that was pretty straight forward. Oh well :)

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Rthor
Smugglers Inc.
#42 - 2013-09-05 17:21:46 UTC
Claire Voyant wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Rthor wrote:
Let's say I point my guns at a rat and get a bounty. Isk is created. This is supposedly inflationary.

Let's say I point my miner at a veldspar rock. Tritanium is created. This is supposedly not inflationary because it is not an "isk faucet." It is a trit faucet. Whatever is the difference.


The difference is, one is the most commonly used item for indirect trade, (aka money) and one is not money. The context here is economics, not English. Playing fast and loose with the definition and context of words is a linguistic argument, not an economic argument.

Rthor has a good point here that you are completely missing. In real life "goods" have a value that is created when real work is done to them. Things are dug up or harvested, refined, worked, and transported whereas modern money is created by fiat and has a value that is assigned to it. Goods and money are clearly to very different types of things, except in early society when iron pots or cattle were used as a medium of exchange.

In Eve, isk and goods are both items in a database created by certain player actions. Isk is more easily transported and exchanged, but there is no fundamental difference between them that would give isk a magical economic status different from tritanium.


Yup. You do not even have to transport anything. All you have to do is own a stockpile of stuff in Jita. Then you convert it to isk as needed.
Rthor
Smugglers Inc.
#43 - 2013-09-05 17:26:09 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Diska Eamod wrote:

One can not pay market fees with Trit, therefore Trit is not money. With 12 trillion Trit and 0 isk, you will lose sovereignty.



"It did not gain this status due to evolution, but because CCP has imposed the rule on us via the market interface."

Thought that was pretty straight forward. Oh well :)


Look up the definition of money. Money has to serve the function of storing of value. Isk fails at that. With every patch you can get harmed if you store your wealth in isk. If you fly a navy raven and the patch doubles its price then you just lost half your wealth.

So just because CCP and you say that isk is money in eve does not make it so because money also has a definition outside of Eve. So get off your high horse. All you are arguing is a tautology that isk is money and therefore isk is money.
Adunh Slavy
#44 - 2013-09-05 18:19:40 UTC
Let's play a little game ...

Rthor wrote:
Look up the definition of money. Money has to serve the function of storing of value. Isk fails at that.


Send me all your ISK right now. If you do not, you prove ISK stores some value.

Rthor wrote:
With every patch you can get harmed if you store your wealth in isk.


You just calimed in the previous sentence that ISK did not store value. But now it can have less value with every patch. So either your first sentence is wrong. This second sentence is wrong, or you lack the ability to make sense.

Rthor wrote:
If you fly a navy raven and the patch doubles its price then you just lost half your wealth.


So a Gallente pilot, who never trained for any Caldari ships, looses half his wealth because Navy Ravens double in price? Really? A change in the supply or capability of a CNR does not change the value of ISK. What changes is the ratio of ISK to CNRs.

Rthor wrote:
So just because CCP and you say that ISK is money in eve does not make it so because money also has a definition outside of Eve.


CCP made ISK the money in Eve. The market interface forces us to use it, Concord forces us, customs agents force us, etc, to use ISK. This force has resulted in ISK being the most commonly used item for indirect trade, that item is classified as money.

Rthor wrote:
So get off your high horse. All you are arguing is a tautology that ISK is money and therefore ISK is money.


Are you really this obtuse? Apparently so.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Adunh Slavy
#45 - 2013-09-05 18:27:35 UTC
Rthor wrote:

Yup. You do not even have to transport anything. All you have to do is own a stockpile of stuff in Jita. Then you convert it to isk as needed.



More of the strawman exposed. Do go find where I claimed you could not do this. I'll be waiting.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Rthor
Smugglers Inc.
#46 - 2013-09-05 19:11:39 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Rthor wrote:

Yup. You do not even have to transport anything. All you have to do is own a stockpile of stuff in Jita. Then you convert it to isk as needed.



More of the strawman exposed. Do go find where I claimed you could not do this. I'll be waiting.

Isk fails as a store of value not because I claim that it will go down in value. Value of isk can even go up from patch to patch. It fails as a store of value because it's value is not stable. From patch to patch its value jumps either up or down. It is like having dollars in real life and one month you can buy a car for 20 grand then next month for same car for 10 grand and then next month for 40 grand and then again for 10 grand. Would you call dollar money if that was happening in real world? Heck maybe you would but a lot of people would then try to dump such a currency and go with something else. This is my argument here that isk is not acting like money.

That is why talking about inflation and isk faucets and isk sinks makes little sense. CCP de facto manipulates the value of isk when aspects of game are changed. When lvl 4s were introduced value of isk cratered for example. So discussing inflation by looking at isk prices of things is kind of pointless. If your only source of income depends on something that just got devalued or appreciated as a result of a patch then you de facto are exposed to huge swings in your purchasing power even though they may not be measurable in isk. And the nerf bat moves around so you cannot hide from it.

If you wanted to measure inflation you would have to take a basket of items and go from there. But if value of isk jumps from patch to patch then it is a pointless exercise.

You are just obsessed with not seeing the point that farming rats for isk is not materially different from mining veldspar. Since it is the same thing basically you should not have preference for isk versus any other thing in eve. The medium of exchange advantage of isk can be negated by having your stockpile of crap in jita.
Adunh Slavy
#47 - 2013-09-05 20:06:51 UTC
Rthor wrote:

You are just obsessed with not seeing the point that farming rats for isk is not materially different from mining veldspar. Since it is the same thing basically you should not have preference for isk versus any other thing in eve. The medium of exchange advantage of isk can be negated by having your stockpile of crap in jita.


There's your strawman again. Find for me where I ever made the claim or argued the point that farming ISK is different from farming veld or any of the other base commodities in Eve. You can not find it because I never made such a claim nor would I ever make such a claim. You are making it up, you are lying. You can search all of my forum posting since 2006 and you will never find such a claim, ever. In fact you will find the opposite, long long before you blundered into this topic.

If I am obsessed with anything it is your lack of ability to understand what the word inflation means, much less what the word money means, though it appears you are attempting to make amends in that regard, and your lack of ability to maintain context. You are having to jump through hoops, contradict your self and lie (making up your strawmans) to try and back up your assertion that farming rats and adding ISK to the economy is not inflationary, you refuse to admit you have a poor understanding of what the word "inflation" means.

When ISK is added to the money supply, that is monetary inflation. If you want to try and argue this, good luck and best wishes because I will not argue with a clown that can't get his head out of his ass.

Here are your words, "Let's say I point my guns at a rat and get a bounty. Isk is created. This is supposedly inflationary."

There is no supposing about it. The money supply has gotten bigger, it has inflated. That's all monetary inflation means, the money supply is bigger. That's it, end of story.

Likely you were trying to use the word inflation like the rest of the rubes, referring to your establishment approved economics text book that defines inflation as a general rise in prices. But the hidden part they don't add to the definition is, "general rise in prices *due to an increase in the money supply*".

That last part is key, it exposes when inflation is measured they are measuring the value of the money. They can not measure it against one thing, as you tried to do with your CNR example (Which I note you now contradict by citing a basket in this most recent post as opposed to your silly CNR example in the previous post.) Glad to see you found google.

Now here's the kicker, your words, "Let's say I point my miner at a veldspar rock. Tritanium is created. This is supposedly not inflationary because it is not an "isk faucet." It is a trit faucet. Whatever is the difference."

Trit is not used as money in Eve, ISK is. That's the difference. So in using a proper definition of inflation (realizing that the term inflation is talking about money) more trit does not equate to inflation of the money supply that might result in a general increase in prices. In fact more trit likely results in lower prices which would be deflationary.

Which brings us all the way back to posts 29 and 32.

Now if you still want to bleat and froth, be my guest and I will continue to enjoy stomping up and down on you.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Zane Lowe
Our Sanctum
Pandemic Horde
#48 - 2013-09-05 20:26:42 UTC
Rthor wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Rthor wrote:

Yup. You do not even have to transport anything. All you have to do is own a stockpile of stuff in Jita. Then you convert it to isk as needed.



More of the strawman exposed. Do go find where I claimed you could not do this. I'll be waiting.

Isk fails as a store of value not because I claim that it will go down in value. Value of isk can even go up from patch to patch. It fails as a store of value because it's value is not stable. From patch to patch its value jumps either up or down. It is like having dollars in real life and one month you can buy a car for 20 grand then next month for same car for 10 grand and then next month for 40 grand and then again for 10 grand. Would you call dollar money if that was happening in real world?


So, you mean something like this never happens in the real world? http://goo.gl/8CqLHw
Or perhaps you were saying that RL investments were more stable than eve investments, which history clearly shows as true. http://goo.gl/OtXpuo

Rthor
Smugglers Inc.
#49 - 2013-09-05 20:26:59 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Rthor wrote:

You are just obsessed with not seeing the point that farming rats for isk is not materially different from mining veldspar. Since it is the same thing basically you should not have preference for isk versus any other thing in eve. The medium of exchange advantage of isk can be negated by having your stockpile of crap in jita.


There's your strawman again. Find for me where I ever made the claim or argued the point that farming ISK is different from farming veld or any of the other base commodities in Eve. You can not find it because I never made such a claim nor would I ever make such a claim. You are making it up, you are lying. You can search all of my forum posting since 2006 and you will never find such a claim, ever. In fact you will find the opposite, long long before you blundered into this topic.

If I am obsessed with anything it is your lack of ability to understand what the word inflation means, much less what the word money means, though it appears you are attempting to make amends in that regard, and your lack of ability to maintain context. You are having to jump through hoops, contradict your self and lie (making up your strawmans) to try and back up your assertion that farming rats and adding ISK to the economy is not inflationary, you refuse to admit you have a poor understanding of what the word "inflation" means.

When ISK is added to the money supply, that is monetary inflation. If you want to try and argue this, good luck and best wishes because I will not argue with a clown that can't get his head out of his ass.

Here are your words, "Let's say I point my guns at a rat and get a bounty. Isk is created. This is supposedly inflationary."

There is no supposing about it. The money supply has gotten bigger, it has inflated. That's all monetary inflation means, the money supply is bigger. That's it, end of story.

Likely you were trying to use the word inflation like the rest of the rubes, referring to your establishment approved economics text book that defines inflation as a general rise in prices. But the hidden part they don't add to the definition is, "general rise in prices *due to an increase in the money supply*".

That last part is key, it exposes when inflation is measured they are measuring the value of the money. They can not measure it against one thing, as you tried to do with your CNR example (Which I note you now contradict by citing a basket in this most recent post as opposed to your silly CNR example in the previous post.) Glad to see you found google.

Now here's the kicker, your words, "Let's say I point my miner at a veldspar rock. Tritanium is created. This is supposedly not inflationary because it is not an "isk faucet." It is a trit faucet. Whatever is the difference."

Trit is not used as money in Eve, ISK is. That's the difference. So in using a proper definition of inflation (realizing that the term inflation is talking about money) more trit does not equate to inflation of the money supply that might result in a general increase in prices. In fact more trit likely results in lower prices which would be deflationary.

Which brings us all the way back to posts 29 and 32.

Now if you still want to bleat and froth, be my guest and I will continue to enjoy stomping up and down on you.


Are you an academic by any chance? Or maybe president of your high school debating society?
Rthor
Smugglers Inc.
#50 - 2013-09-05 20:33:25 UTC
Zane Lowe wrote:
Rthor wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Rthor wrote:

Yup. You do not even have to transport anything. All you have to do is own a stockpile of stuff in Jita. Then you convert it to isk as needed.



More of the strawman exposed. Do go find where I claimed you could not do this. I'll be waiting.

Isk fails as a store of value not because I claim that it will go down in value. Value of isk can even go up from patch to patch. It fails as a store of value because it's value is not stable. From patch to patch its value jumps either up or down. It is like having dollars in real life and one month you can buy a car for 20 grand then next month for same car for 10 grand and then next month for 40 grand and then again for 10 grand. Would you call dollar money if that was happening in real world?


So, you mean something like this never happens in the real world? http://goo.gl/8CqLHw
Or perhaps you were saying that RL investments were more stable than eve investments, which history clearly shows as true. http://goo.gl/OtXpuo



I am trying to figure out whether changes in prices in eve are due to player manipulation of prices, and they are kind of hidden as if RL market forces were at play. Things of course go up and down in price IRL. But eve is a bit different from RL. For example you do not need to pay to store minerals in Jita, but in RL you cannot store such corresponding quantities of oil in your garage for free and just dump them on the market from time to time.
Zane Lowe
Our Sanctum
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2013-09-05 20:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Zane Lowe
Rthor wrote:
Zane Lowe wrote:
Rthor wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Rthor wrote:

Yup. You do not even have to transport anything. All you have to do is own a stockpile of stuff in Jita. Then you convert it to isk as needed.



More of the strawman exposed. Do go find where I claimed you could not do this. I'll be waiting.

Isk fails as a store of value not because I claim that it will go down in value. Value of isk can even go up from patch to patch. It fails as a store of value because it's value is not stable. From patch to patch its value jumps either up or down. It is like having dollars in real life and one month you can buy a car for 20 grand then next month for same car for 10 grand and then next month for 40 grand and then again for 10 grand. Would you call dollar money if that was happening in real world?


So, you mean something like this never happens in the real world? http://goo.gl/8CqLHw
Or perhaps you were saying that RL investments were more stable than eve investments, which history clearly shows as true. http://goo.gl/OtXpuo



I am trying to figure out whether changes in prices in eve are due to player manipulation of prices, and they are kind of hidden as if RL market forces were at play. Things of course go up and down in price IRL. But eve is a bit different from RL. For example you do not need to pay to store minerals in Jita, but in RL you cannot store such corresponding quantities of oil in your garage for free and just dump them on the market from time to time.



Think of market items like shares of stock in real life. You can't buy drums of oil IRL, but you can buy shares that represent drums of oil and store them with no fee.

Edit: Prices of items in eve are relatively static. If you see a major price shift, it's most likely in response to something CCP did, with a few exceptions (ice interdiction comes to mind)
Adunh Slavy
#52 - 2013-09-05 20:40:10 UTC
Rthor wrote:

Are you an academic by any chance? Or maybe president of your high school debating society?



No, someone who hates to see someone like you, who might have a valid argument to make, screw it all up because you misuse words and then make silly arguments to defend the misuse of those words.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Rthor
Smugglers Inc.
#53 - 2013-09-05 20:48:47 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Rthor wrote:

Are you an academic by any chance? Or maybe president of your high school debating society?



No, someone who hates to see someone like you, who might have a valid argument to make, screw it all up because you misuse words and then make silly arguments to defend the misuse of those words.


Congratulations on your victory on the side of mediocrity and for saving the world from me screwing it all up.
Adunh Slavy
#54 - 2013-09-05 20:52:22 UTC
Rthor wrote:

Congratulations on your victory on the side of mediocrity and for saving the world from me screwing it all up.



Any time you need help from being less than mediocure, just let me know, I'm glad to help raise you to the level of everyone else.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Rthor
Smugglers Inc.
#55 - 2013-09-05 20:54:01 UTC
Zane Lowe wrote:
Think of market items like shares of stock in real life. You can't buy drums of oil IRL, but you can buy shares that represent drums of oil and store them with no fee.

Edit: Prices of items in eve are relatively static. If you see a major price shift, it's most likely in response to something CCP did, with a few exceptions (ice interdiction comes to mind)


But these are hard to act on. Take for example Kronos price. Somebody at CCP mentioned something and priced skyrocketed immediately.

I think that there are people with tons of isk who are manipulating on day to day basis irrespective of what CCP changes.

If you compare eve market items to stocks, I think that the best analogy would be non-dividend paying stocks and these would tend to be speculative. Basically you get for them whatever somebody will pay in the future. But this would support my instinct that prices go up and down as a result of player manipulation also.

The way this pertains to this thread is that people are talking about inflation and isk sinks and isk faucets in an environment where CCP changes values of things from patch to patch or from dev blog to dev blog, while players are also likely manipulating prices all under the explanation that inflation is responsible for this or that.
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#56 - 2013-09-05 20:54:03 UTC
Rthor wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Rthor wrote:

Are you an academic by any chance? Or maybe president of your high school debating society?



No, someone who hates to see someone like you, who might have a valid argument to make, screw it all up because you misuse words and then make silly arguments to defend the misuse of those words.


Congratulations on your victory on the side of mediocrity and for saving the world from me screwing it all up.


Idd. can you stop posting you nunsense then?
I wanted to write a long explanation why you are an imbecile and most defenetly wrong, but Adunh did an excelent job already.

I think you are the one who belong to the debate club. you would be perfect there, ignorant as the rest of them.

Sheep are also money! muhahahaha....

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#57 - 2013-09-05 20:56:15 UTC
BTW, i think CCP buys/sells on the market other items too not only PLEX. but i don't have proof :)

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Rthor
Smugglers Inc.
#58 - 2013-09-05 20:58:04 UTC
arabella blood wrote:
Rthor wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Rthor wrote:

Are you an academic by any chance? Or maybe president of your high school debating society?



No, someone who hates to see someone like you, who might have a valid argument to make, screw it all up because you misuse words and then make silly arguments to defend the misuse of those words.


Congratulations on your victory on the side of mediocrity and for saving the world from me screwing it all up.


Idd. can you stop posting you nunsense then?
I wanted to write a long explanation why you are an imbecile and most defenetly wrong, but Adunh did an excelent job already.

I think you are the one who belong to the debate club. you would be perfect there, ignorant as the rest of them.

Sheep are also money! muhahahaha....


You know there used to be flat earth society, too. Just because you two agree does not make you right.
Rthor
Smugglers Inc.
#59 - 2013-09-05 21:01:48 UTC
arabella blood wrote:
BTW, i think CCP buys/sells on the market other items too not only PLEX. but i don't have proof :)


Aha finally an interesting idea!
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#60 - 2013-09-05 21:12:02 UTC
Rthor wrote:
arabella blood wrote:
BTW, i think CCP buys/sells on the market other items too not only PLEX. but i don't have proof :)


Aha finally an interesting idea!


And i don't mean NPC orders Lol

I think i might have read it somewhere too, but not sure.

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.