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Do Level 4 missions pay too much compared to 1 through 3?

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#661 - 2013-09-05 18:54:20 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I have to say that I find it absolutely precious that whenever I produce these back-of-the-envelope calculations of the sheer amount of wealth (ISK, LP, items, all totalled up) generated by hi-sec missions, it never ever fails to generate a huge shitstorm of denial, rage, obfuscation and desperate attempts to divert the discussion to something - anything else to obscure the simple fact that a single high population mission hub generates more wealth than all the high end moons combined.

Anyway, please do carry on. We can get this one to 50 pages easily. I know you guys can do it.


This proves that high sec has no CSM representatives.


High sec could if they'd bother to vote at all.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#662 - 2013-09-05 18:58:43 UTC
Do you guys need help moving the goalposts? I know it has to be quite strenuous.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#663 - 2013-09-05 19:00:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
How have we arrived at the conclusion hisec is the problem?
From the data on where the destruction happens and what type it is.

Quote:
Nullsec bounty payouts are x3-x4 more than hisec per kill.
Do you have a source for this?


You know he doesn't lol, he's just parroting high sec belief.



Are you stating for the record that null sec rats do not pay more than hisec rats?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#664 - 2013-09-05 19:01:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
So to recap
…you haven't been able to dispute neither the evidence nor the conclusions based on that evidence; you've offered no coherent argument against anything that has been said; and you have now switched over to wishing things come true merely by saying them.

Quote:
Do you guys need help moving the goalposts?
If we wanted to move them, you'd be the first person we'd call. Promise!

Quote:
Are you stating for the record that null sec rats do not pay more than hisec rats?
We are stating for the record that the distinction between “null sec rats” and “high sec rats” is a complete misunderstanding of how rats are actually categorised.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#665 - 2013-09-05 19:07:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Tippia your "opinion based evidence" has been shown lacking. Continually ignoring that isn't making your "opinion based evidence" any stronger.

I'm sorry you are unable to prove a correlation between every bounty kill payout tallied and the hisec percentage of that tally as a problem that needs fixing but that's not something to be argumentative about.

Hell, im not disagreeable. Nerf bounties across the board, all secs. But I have a hunch that won't be acceptable. Because the underlying assumption is that "hisec" bounties pay to much even though the "opinion based evidence" doesn't distinguish between the two.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#666 - 2013-09-05 19:11:00 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Tippia your evidence has been shown lacking.
In what way?

Quote:
I'm sorry you are unable to prove a correlation between every bounty kill payout tallied and the hisec percentage of that tally as a problem that needs fixing but that's not something
…I ever tried, so there's no need to be sorry. Personally, I'm sorry that you can't come up with any kind of argument or evidence to dispute the facts at hand and have to rely on fallacies to try to fake having a point.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#667 - 2013-09-05 19:12:05 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
How have we arrived at the conclusion hisec is the problem?
From the data on where the destruction happens and what type it is.

Quote:
Nullsec bounty payouts are x3-x4 more than hisec per kill.
Do you have a source for this?


You know he doesn't lol, he's just parroting high sec belief.



Are you stating for the record that null sec rats do not pay more than hisec rats?


Yes i am. Null sec has better (belt and deadspace) rats that high sec doesn't have. Put another way, Null sec has all the ranks of rats, low sec has most types of rats (and now with the conle ships, it has unique rats), and high sec has all but the most lucrative rats (for example, in angel missions you can get up to Angel Saints but not Cherubims and Searaphins).

What you said was that the same rat pays out more in null than high. you said null sec rats pay x3 or x4 times as much isk. BOTH of these false and anyone with any experience in null sec knows that. The only rats that pay out 3 or 4 times as much as a similar sized rat in high sec are officer spawns, and those are so rare the vast majority of null sec residents will never see one.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#668 - 2013-09-05 19:14:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Tippia wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Tippia your evidence has been shown lacking.
In what way?

Quote:
I'm sorry you are unable to prove a correlation between every bounty kill payout tallied and the hisec percentage of that tally as a problem that needs fixing but that's not something
…I ever tried, so there's no need to be sorry. Personally, I'm sorry that you can't come up with any kind of argument or evidence to dispute the facts at hand and have to rely on fallacies to try to fake having a point.



Ok Tippia, what then is your purpose in this thread? What have the links you provided attempted to show?

Nothing? Something? You tell us.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#669 - 2013-09-05 19:20:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Ok Tippia, what then is your purpose in this thread?
To inject actual facts to dispute or support many of the baseless or outright incorrect claims made about various income sources and to suggest some solutions to the over-injection of ISK that's going on.

Quote:
What has the links you provided attempted to show?
The ones I provided show the disproportionate injection of ISK from bounty-based activities (and, at the time, incursions, but those have been adjusted since, and actually create some demand in the process so they're a different category of problem).

Jenn aSide wrote:
The only rats that pay out 3 or 4 times as much as a similar sized rat in high sec are officer spawns, and those are so rare the vast majority of null sec residents will never see one.
They're also in a class of their own, so thinking of them in terms of “the same kind of rat” is deeply flawed to begin with.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#670 - 2013-09-05 19:24:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Ok Tippia, what then is your purpose in this thread?
To inject actual facts to dispute or support many of the baseless or outright incorrect claims made about various income sources and to suggest some solutions to the over-injection of ISK that's going on.

Quote:
What has the links you provided attempted to show?
The ones I provided show the disproportionate injection of ISK from bounty-based activities (and, at the time, incursions, but those have been adjusted since, and actually create some demand in the process so they're a different category of problem).

Jenn aSide wrote:
The only rats that pay out 3 or 4 times as much as a similar sized rat in high sec are officer spawns, and those are so rare the vast majority of null sec residents will never see one.
They're also in a class of their own, so thinking of them in terms of “the same kind of rat” is deeply flawed to begin with.



Okay I accept you have shown that wealth is created in larger sums by bounties. Could it be that more people enjoy doing those activities compared to the other forms of wealth creation? If people are doing it in larger numbers obviously more wealth will be created in doing so. How does that have any other implication outside of what it directly states?
GreenSeed
#671 - 2013-09-05 19:25:18 UTC
isk is not a currency, its just another commodity.

you extract ore from asteroids, you extract isk from rats, lowering the supply of isk would send the eve economy into rampant inflation.

and no, bounties don't create inflation... they lower it.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#672 - 2013-09-05 19:25:28 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I have to say that I find it absolutely precious that whenever I produce these back-of-the-envelope calculations of the sheer amount of wealth (ISK, LP, items, all totalled up) generated by hi-sec missions, it never ever fails to generate a huge shitstorm of denial, rage, obfuscation and desperate attempts to divert the discussion to something - anything else to obscure the simple fact that a single high population mission hub generates more wealth than all the high end moons combined.

Anyway, please do carry on. We can get this one to 50 pages easily. I know you guys can do it.


This proves that high sec has no CSM representatives.


High sec could if they'd bother to vote at all.


What's the point? It's not like they've got any real power.

Anyhow, I've got home from work today and completed my 3 L4 missions back to back like I did yesterday, only today with no salvaging (as salvaging as been raised as a topic in this ongoing thread).

As explained fully in this post https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3573396#post3573396

Yesterday with salvage I got this.

Average Mission Running Time 45 mins.
Mission Rewards, Bounties etc 35million
Loot Average value 18 Million
Loyalty Points 11000

Average Total Wealth per hour 21 Million

Today I got:

Mission Rewards, Bounties etc, 15million
Loot Average Value = None (No Salvage)
Loyalty Points 8700

Todays missions we taken directly from the agent without declining, no missions were refused and none were farmed. No blitzing went on, every single mission rat was killed. The average completion time was 30 minutes.

Total Missioning Time = 1, 1/2 hours. If we take the loyalty points at face value as explained in my earlier post we get a grand total of 23,700,000 isk generated which works out as 15.8 Million isk per hour. Worse than yesterday but that's just the luck of the draw.

Adding it all up across all 6 missions and not including salvage we get = 69,700,000 isk created over 3.75 hours that's actually 18.66 million per hour running missions, randomly generated, no refusals, no blitzing. It's hardly the 60 million per hour claimed early on in this thread.

I used the same T1 hull, fitted with T2 mods and with my good skills that is the result. This also fits with my personal experience of missioning in high sec when I used to do it regularly some time back. I am now on my way back to my outpost in Stain, so the naysayers can take it as read that I know all about Null....



Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#673 - 2013-09-05 19:31:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Im fairly certain belt rats in hisec payout in the 250k range and nullsec 1 mil plus. Sure there are variations by true sec but since no one is differentiating by actual truesec and only high, low or null its a fairly accurate comparison.

Im using battleship hulls as the measure.

Unless battleship hulls become something different in nullsec im quite certain the comparison makes perfect sense.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#674 - 2013-09-05 19:35:31 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Im fairly certain belt rats in hisec payout in the 250k range and nullsec 1 mil plus. Sure there are variations by true sec but since no one is differentiating by actual truesec and only high low or null its a fairly accurate comparison.

Im using battleship hulls as the measure.


As an average they do. Yet in 0.4 space you can see belt rats worth 1mill.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#675 - 2013-09-05 19:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Okay I accept you have shown that wealth is created in larger sums by bounties. Could it be that more people enjoy doing those activities compared to the other forms of wealth creation?
The economy doesn't care what people enjoy. The economy cares that in- and outflow of money and goods. What we're saying is that there is an imbalance (or two…) in how bounty-based income sources affect those four parameters.

Quote:
Im fairly certain belt rats in hisec payout in the 250k range and nullsec 1 mil plus.
…and the same rat will pay the same regardless of where you encounter it. What certain rats pay compared to what certain other rats pay out tells us nothing. By that measure, highsec L4 missions (as exemplified by this) pay 4× more than L4 highsec missions (as shown by this).

Quote:
Im using battleship hulls as the measure.
Oh, you mean the ships that don't appear in highsec belts?

GreenSeed wrote:
and no, bounties don't create inflation... they lower it.
Bounties don't do either. An oversupply of money creates inflation. You know: more at hand → wiling and able to pay more for the same good → prices go up?

Bounties simply increase the money supply…
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#676 - 2013-09-05 19:43:09 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Im fairly certain belt rats in hisec payout in the 250k range and nullsec 1 mil plus. Sure there are variations by true sec but since no one is differentiating by actual truesec and only high, low or null its a fairly accurate comparison.

Im using battleship hulls as the measure.

Unless battleship hulls become something different in nullsec im quite certain the comparison makes perfect sense.


Exactly where can I find these High Sec Battleship belt rats?

Null sec anomalies and complexes use DEADSPACE rats, just the same as missions, belt ratting stopped being a thing in 2008 lol. Is that really where you got the 4x at much BS?
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#677 - 2013-09-05 19:51:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Tippia wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Okay I accept you have shown that wealth is created in larger sums by bounties. Could it be that more people enjoy doing those activities compared to the other forms of wealth creation?
The economy doesn't care what people enjoy. The economy cares that in- and outflow of money and goods. What we're saying is that there is an imbalance (or two…) in how bounty-based income sources affect those four parameters.

Quote:
Im fairly certain belt rats in hisec payout in the 250k range and nullsec 1 mil plus.
…and the same rat will pay the same regardless of where you encounter it. What certain rats pay compared to what certain other rats pay out tells us nothing. By that measure, highsec L4 missions (as exemplified by this) pay 4× more than L4 highsec missions (as shown by this).

Quote:
Im using battleship hulls as the measure.
Oh, you mean the ships that don't appear in highsec belts?

GreenSeed wrote:
and no, bounties don't create inflation... they lower it.
Bounties don't do either. An oversupply of money creates inflation. You know: more at hand → wiling and able to pay more for the same good → prices go up?

Bounties simply increase the money supply…


The 4 parameters being money in, money out, goods in and goods out?

You claim there is an imbalance of those 4 parameters based on bounty income.

Can you present and illustrate this because at this juncture I do not see you having communicated exactly what is occurring negatively, why it needs adjustment, or even that one has affected the other.

What I have seen you present is a dev linked statistic that shows X amount of money is brought in by bounties but absolutely nothing to suggest other than your own belief that every isk in must absolutely have a way out.

If i'm misunderstanding you it's not because of my inability to grasp an advanced or complex theory or hypothesis and everything to with you not conveying your points clearly.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#678 - 2013-09-05 19:58:27 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
You claim there is an imbalance of those 4 parameters based on bounty income.
Actually, I mainly focus on the money in/money out part. Jenn adopts a bigger perspective and includes ship losses to look at the goods side of the equation as well. Since no-one can mount any kind of coherent counter-argument to this, I feel inclined to agree with his conclusions.

Quote:
What I have seen you present is a dev linked statistic that show X amount of money is brought in by bounties but absolutely nothing to suggest other than your own belief that every dollar in must absolutely have a way out.
That's because you keep putting words in my mouth. I'll leave it as an exercise to you to figure out what you messed up this time. Just a warning: it will require some actual reading and thought.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#679 - 2013-09-05 20:02:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Tippia wrote:
The economy doesn't care what people enjoy. The economy cares that in- and outflow of money and goods. What we're saying is that there is an imbalance (or two…) in how bounty-based income sources affect those four parameters.



The 4 parameters being money in, money out, goods in and goods out?

You claim there is an imbalance of those 4 parameters based on bounty income.

Can you present and illustrate this because at this juncture I do not see you having communicated exactly what is occurring negatively, why it needs adjustment, or even that one has affected the other.

What I have seen you present is a dev linked statistic that shows X amount of money is brought in by bounties but absolutely nothing to suggest other than your own belief that every isk in must absolutely have a way out.

If i'm misunderstanding you it's not because of my inability to grasp an advanced or complex theory or hypothesis and everything to with you not conveying your points clearly.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#680 - 2013-09-05 20:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
Tippia wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
You claim there is an imbalance of those 4 parameters based on bounty income.
Actually, I mainly focus on the money in/money out part. Jenn adopts a bigger perspective and includes ship losses to look at the goods side of the equation as well. Since no-one can mount any kind of coherent counter-argument to this, I feel inclined to agree with his conclusions.

Quote:
What I have seen you present is a dev linked statistic that show X amount of money is brought in by bounties but absolutely nothing to suggest other than your own belief that every dollar in must absolutely have a way out.
That's because you keep putting words in my mouth. I'll leave it as an exercise to you to figure out what you messed up this time. Just a warning: it will require some actual reading and thought.


I mounted a coherent counter argument to this by actually running missions and recording the result but you've ignored those posts as they do not fit your world view. I am a null sec resident and rolling in cash from living in null. L4 missions are thin gravy compared to the riches of 0.0.

Edit: I was actually surprised by how little cash the l4's brought in.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...