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Sensitive document relating to the assault on Caldari Prime goes missing
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Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#61 - 2013-09-04 17:27:54 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
There we are in agreement, obviously. The current solution is, in point of fact, the closest to a resolution that is acceptable to both sides that I can imagine.


With a little luck and hard work, it might even be the foundation of some sort of solution to our current war.


Unfortunately, I suspect more than a little luck will be needed. Given that neither nation has pushed for a detente, and that Roden profits personally from the war, it will likely be some time before this perpetual border skirmish draws to a close.

That said, I'm actually rather hoping that these documents enter general circulation. I'd be curious what expectations, projections, and preparations the Federation undertook. In all honesty, I expect that the Roden administration will be embarrassed by some of it, at the very least.

Also, Mr. Ixiris, thank you for removing those terrible, horrible glasses.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-09-04 18:56:02 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
That wasn't their primary objective though, was it? I thought getting the Shiigeru out of Luminaire was?


It was their primary objective now, if you get my meaning.

All those troops landed on the planet? All those "resistance fighters" and weapons smuggled in? All those campaign promises?

Yeah, those were to get the Shiigeru out of orbit. Totally. Why else? We totally had no objectives otherwise, really. Even if we said so. Big bluff. Yup.

A week of fighting on the planet? Yeah, that was...uh, because we didn't want to reinforce things. Didn't want to use our firepower to, you know, win. Ignore those news reports. They have nothing to do with the things. Uh, gotta go.



As I have said, the troops that were sent in were to aid Gallente rebels and dismantle the totalitarian regime of the Provist. You can look at the news reports yourself. Not a single one says that the troops were for the purpose of invasion or occupation.

Removing the Shiigeru was the main goal, getting rid of the Provist butchering our citizens was the next. We accomplished both and neither have involved occupying your planet.

Heth may be gone, but it seems his propaganda isn't.

Eran Mintor wrote:


Clearly, Fred has received these documents as he didn't know the answer himself when he started talking, but chanced upon the answers by the time he finished.

-Eran


I've stated multiple times that this was mere speculation and that the truth will be revealed when the documents are either leaked or declassified.

Brilliant strawman fallacy as always Mr. Mintor.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#63 - 2013-09-04 19:35:01 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Uhm. That's the second time you've made this mistake, but I'll poke you for it now Fred. The attack on Shiigeru was massively phyrric as victories go. Also they didn't decide NOT to invade, they invaded and were bloodily repulsed.

Stop acting like the Federation stopped short of stealing Home AGAIN out of the kindness of their heart - I have no doubt that the incredibly high price paid and the price remaining to be paid was the reason they were amenable to diplomatic negotiation.

And to some the Shiigeru and what it represented was all that mattered.

All other considerations, yes even the Gallente on the surface, were of secondary importance.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#64 - 2013-09-04 19:45:00 UTC
Considering that the fall of the Shiigeru ultimately heralded the fall of Heth-guri, I'd say Syagrius is onto something.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is why the Highlander document is considered sensitive: that Federation was willing to accept the deployment of a doomsday device against Caldari Prime, and this may not be something the Roden administration would like widely known.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#65 - 2013-09-04 19:51:00 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
As I have said, the troops that were sent in were to aid Gallente rebels and dismantle the totalitarian regime of the Provist. You can look at the news reports yourself. Not a single one says that the troops were for the purpose of invasion or occupation.

Removing the Shiigeru was the main goal, getting rid of the Provist butchering our citizens was the next. We accomplished both and neither have involved occupying your planet.

Heth may be gone, but it seems his propaganda isn't.


They also involved the butchery of innocent civilians - such as Kaalakiota miners and several and sundry atrocities and war crimes. And don't try to sell me a line of soft soap on that because these things have been confirmed by independent witnesses.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#66 - 2013-09-04 19:58:51 UTC
Purpose-built humanitarian crisis: Black Eagles foment violence. Provists respond overly harshly. Black Eagles begin guerrilla movement. Federation responds to the crisis that they themselves instigated.

Clean, effective, and so long as after-action reports don't leak that first detail of a manufactured cause for action, politically expedient.

Perhaps I should be more trusting of the Roden administration, but I've yet seen no reason to be.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#67 - 2013-09-04 23:03:10 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Eran Mintor wrote:


Clearly, Fred has received these documents as he didn't know the answer himself when he started talking, but chanced upon the answers by the time he finished.

-Eran


I've stated multiple times that this was mere speculation and that the truth will be revealed when the documents are either leaked or declassified.

Brilliant strawman fallacy as always Mr. Mintor.


For it to be a Strawman fallacy that would require a debate or arguement to be taking place. This is not the case. All this is is speculation and people saying they know better than the other.

I am merely proding you with a stick. For some reason I'm disturbingly amused by it.

-Eran
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-09-05 01:20:29 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:


For it to be a Strawman fallacy that would require a debate or arguement to be taking place. This is not the case. All this is is speculation and people saying they know better than the other.

I am merely proding you with a stick. For some reason I'm disturbingly amused by it.

-Eran



It still is considering that you are skewing what I said to make it easier to attack. Though you are right, we are all speculating.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#69 - 2013-09-05 03:49:51 UTC
Bugabus,

I'm sorry you seem to think I'm attacking you. It really wasn't intended as such. However, it does perplex me that you would, on the one hand say that we (ie. everyone) really have no truth to the reasons behind Highlander, while assuming you have enough information to personally know, or speculate as to what these reasons were. Consider it someone tapping you on the shoulder telling you to "Be careful."

As to this deal with the fabled 'straw man,' and I do hate that saying, it is very hard to create a 'straw man fallacy' when you yourself are basing your thoughts on speculation. Such loose grounds are really impossible to go below to create a 'straw man.'

Also, hay is for horses, and I am not a horse. Neiiiiigh.

-Eran
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2013-09-05 04:03:51 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
Bugabus,

I'm sorry you seem to think I'm attacking you. It really wasn't intended as such. However, it does perplex me that you would, on the one hand say that we (ie. everyone) really have no truth to the reasons behind Highlander, while assuming you have enough information to personally know, or speculate as to what these reasons were. Consider it someone tapping you on the shoulder telling you to "Be careful."

As to this deal with the fabled 'straw man,' and I do hate that saying, it is very hard to create a 'straw man fallacy' when you yourself are basing your thoughts on speculation. Such loose grounds are really impossible to go below to create a 'straw man.'


I don't think you were attacking me personally, I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Attacking what I said though, yes, which I don't take personally as this is an open discussion and anything I say can and should be put under scrutiny. However, I felt that you did so in a way that I wasn't too fond of.

Thank you for the tap on the shoulder. However, I and the others in this thread are merely looking at what we know to be correct and creating arguments based on that. If at any point I am proven wrong or convinced that I am wrong (yes it does happen, I'm willing to change my opinion if I can be convinced) I will openly acknowledge it. I'm a stubborn bastard, but I am open minded.

And I suppose the nature of this discussion makes it difficult for a true strawman fallacy to emerge. I apologize for my rather unjustified accusation, I read that rather early in the morning for me. I'm not a fan of mornings and do get rather grumpy.

Quote:

Also, hay is for horses, and I am not a horse. Neiiiiigh.

-Eran


This is the single greatest line on the IGS I've read in a long time. It's just so random and hilarious. Thanks for the laugh, I needed it today.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#71 - 2013-09-05 04:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Eran Mintor
Smiling (nor laughing, unless manically) is not becoming of a capsuleer.

-Eran

(P.S. I don't think you will ever find the real answers in regards to these documents, or Highlander. Something in my gut tells me these documents weren't "lost" for the public's sake. Perhaps I am wrong, and we will just have to wait for these answers...)
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-09-05 07:35:37 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

This is one of the few things we will all gladly admit ignorance of, Diana - we have no idea what goes on in that broken little brain of yours.

Well, at least I know what is going on in that little malfunctioning brain of yours.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-09-05 07:41:35 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

As I have said, the troops that were sent in were to aid Gallente rebels and dismantle the totalitarian regime of the Provist.

In other words, armed intrusion to support gallentean terrorist attacks against lawful government and owners of the planet.

Fredfredbug4 wrote:

Heth may be gone, but it seems his propaganda isn't.

I hope you do understand, that this DMZ solution is temporary. We will return and will finish cleaning of our planet from gallentean swines. With our hero Tibus Heth, or without.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-09-05 07:45:27 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:

And to some the Shiigeru and what it represented was all that mattered.

CN Shiigeru was a shield over our planet, although it is gone, the planet is still ours. Luckily, we have enough titans to place them to guard our citizens, trapped in the gallentean territory. But don't worry, when the time will come, the DMZ will be revoked and the defense perimeter will be reestablished.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#75 - 2013-09-05 07:48:24 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Considering that the fall of the Shiigeru ultimately heralded the fall of Heth-guri, I'd say Syagrius is onto something.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is why the Highlander document is considered sensitive: that Federation was willing to accept the deployment of a doomsday device against Caldari Prime, and this may not be something the Roden administration would like widely known.

I can bet, that they weren't willing just to accept the deployment of a doomsday against Caldari Prime, but they were willing for it to be deployed.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-09-05 10:20:08 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
I hope you do understand, that this DMZ solution is temporary. We will return and will finish cleaning of our planet from gallentean swines. With our hero Tibus Heth, or without.

Nope, not going to happen. Guess what? CONCORD isn't going to put up with the State violating the Yulai Convention a second time - not that the State would try, without the traitor Heth in charge.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#77 - 2013-09-05 12:24:15 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
I hope you do understand, that this DMZ solution is temporary. We will return and will finish cleaning of our planet from gallentean swines. With our hero Tibus Heth, or without.

Nope, not going to happen. Guess what? CONCORD isn't going to put up with the State violating the Yulai Convention a second time - not that the State would try, without the traitor Heth in charge.

Im tired of your stupidity and ignorance. Tibus Heth is not a traitor, he is a hero of the State.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2013-09-05 15:15:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Diana Kim wrote:
Im tired of your stupidity and ignorance. Tibus Heth is not a traitor, he is a hero of the State.

No, he's not a "hero of the State," he's responsible for the murder of a hero of the State. He was then responsible for the terrorist seizure of a Caldari Constructions station. After refusing to stand down and co-operate with the CEP, he was denounced by the CEP and the Kaalakiota board of directors.

He then fled from CEP justice when it came for him.

The executor position he created for himself, and the support infrastructure to the position in the form of the Caldari Providence Directorate were both dissolved, and the CEP restored to their rightful position as the State's leadership. The Caldari Business Tribunal (remember, those people you think are going to reinstate Heth rather than prosecute him?) and the CEP both issued warrants for his arrest on a laundry list of offences.

Heth is a hero to no-one in the State, because no-one in the State would revere a man who has defied State law and custom on multiple occasions and refused to answer for it in front of legitimate State authority. This marks him as a traitor.

You need to deal with reality.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2013-09-05 15:44:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Diana Kim wrote:

In other words, armed intrusion to support gallentean terrorist attacks against lawful government and owners of the planet.


Something wrong with that? I'd rebel against the "lawful" owners of a planet if they were butchering my people too.

Quote:
I hope you do understand, that this DMZ solution is temporary. We will return and will finish cleaning of our planet from gallentean swines. With our hero Tibus Heth, or without.


Right! You guys can launch an attack and make complete arses of yourselves...again...and then in no more than 5 years get pushed out of Luminaire...again...and all at the cost of millions of lives and cataclysmic damage to your homeworld...again...

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#80 - 2013-09-06 15:33:50 UTC
Asking Kim to see the world through non-Provist glasses and look at stark reality is like asking a devout Amarrian to become an atheist.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.