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Do Level 4 missions pay too much compared to 1 through 3?

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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#541 - 2013-09-05 14:14:11 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:



Life is so ******* hard for you. QQ I thought you guys wanted increased risk for the bigger rewards of null sec.



Yeah, so where are the rewards? Given the same amount if time I can use three agents two systems and make the same amount in hi sec given equal amounts of time.

Without having to cyno around ships (because moving a ratting battleships solo is near suicide)
Without having to fight off tacklers
Without black ops drops
Without fighting off small gangs
Without dealing with sov
Without needing to go 25+ jumps to get to a market
Without staring at local


I don't know where people get the idea that "null is all empty and no one is ever there" apparently they don't know how to use dotlan or are out in Spire or somewhere equal cut off. In all of the regions I've operated in (which is most of the map) there is constant activity, a lot of which you have to deal with.


Man you must be doing it wrong, whenever I come back from Null Sec or time in the hole, I am space rich. I decided to test this today by running l4's in high sec. I spent on average 45 mins per mission in my T2 fitted ship (not a ******* Tengu as I am trying to simulate Mr Average here), another 25 mins cleaning up the salvage and loot and across 3 missions thrown out randomly by the agent. I earned:

mission bounties and rewards: 35 million
Loot average value: 18 million
Loyalty Points: 11000

If you assume each Loyalty point is worth 1000 isk (I'm being generous here as they usually aren't due to other factors such as having to spend isk to redeem items or collect tags of the market or from other missions etc) you are looking at a grand total of 64 million over 3 hours approx. that's 21 million a hour all in.

We've got to think of Mr average when balancing stuff like this, because not everyone owns a tengu, not everyone wants one and lets be honest if people can scrape together the 1.2 billion fully fitted price tag that usually accompanies a T3 cruiser and can complete and salvage L4 missions in 1/2 hour than good luck to them. They've paid for that performance in terms of both isk, skills and experience. They are reaping the rewards of all of their hard work. Assuming Mr Tengu pilot is twice as fast as me given that I have elite missile skills and all other things remain equal (which they don't) then at best the guy is hitting 35 million per hour as there is no T3 salvager. Tomorrow I'm going to try the same experiment without salvaging to see how it works out purely on the mission income and LP.

Also be aware, that no ALT was used in the process. This is one person, doing one mission, one at a time, back to back.


Right, so you are within 20 mil an hour of anomaly income with a T2 battleship easily...in HIGH sec.

and pro tip, salvaging is a waste of time, blitz and gtfo


You need to read all of the post. I am doing it again without salvaging today to see how much money is made as it's something that needs to be repaired. Salvage value is based on the value counter that shows in the hanger so it's not entirely reliable because you don't know how much money you will make if any until you sell it. Anyway an extra 20 million for a null sec anon is pretty good value.

You also need to understand that many people use their high sec pve to pay for their low/null sec losses so L4 missions need to pay well to keep people in the game. Not everyone can grind all day, and not everyone fancies being part if a large null sec alliance that holds sov as the latter option is too restrictive on their gameplay. I cant tell you how much time I lost where I could have been enjoying my eve rushing to get online in time for 6.30pm which was supposed to be fleet formup time then hanging around for an hour and a half as we waited for the fleet to assemble. Some of us are married, have jobs and have commitments so need to be able to get right into the game for a bit of a relax and a de-stress. Eve needs to cater to this type of player too as we usually pay with real life money, not plex.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#542 - 2013-09-05 14:16:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Jenn aSide wrote:


Good thing I haven't lost any arguments then. More of our game playing GD posting colleagues agree with me than with you.

I know losing is tough, but you'll get used to it.

You have yet to post a single fact in support of anything you've ever said (unlike me, as i've linked to dev blogs and other such sources), yet you try to project your failures on me lol. That's marks you as someone divorced from reality, which shouldn't surprise me given that this is an MMOs board, but it's still kinda sad.....

You can dislike the blunt truths I'm exposing you to, but you can't change reality by pretending what I've said is wrong.



If by losing the argument you mean having been forced to back away from your biased, factless, unproven outlook, then no you haven't lost the argument. Under that definition though it would be impossible for you to lose the argument as you are a particularly stubborn person.

If we go by the real world definition in which you have and will continue to have your points dissected, analyzed and then defeated then yes you have.

Also i'd ask you to seriously consider how you come off to the rest of the community by calling your point of view "truth". Are you our EVE messiah?

Anytime those EVE colleagues want to actually put up an argument that the rest of the world could read and find worthy i'll gladly address them as well. Tell them to prepare an argument with more than emotion and "legends" of proof. More than hyperbole and opinion. More than nihilistic rhetoric. And most of all be prepared to defend the idea.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#543 - 2013-09-05 14:25:00 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Good thing I haven't lost any arguments then. More of our game playing GD posting colleagues agree with me than with you.

I know losing is tough, but you'll get used to it.

You have yet to post a single fact in support of anything you've ever said (unlike me, as i've linked to dev blogs and other such sources), yet you try to project your failures on me lol. That's marks you as someone divorced from reality, which shouldn't surprise me given that this is an MMOs board, but it's still kinda sad.....

You can dislike the blunt truths I'm exposing you to, but you can't change reality by pretending what I've said is wrong.



If by losing the argument you mean having been forced to back away from your biased, factless, unproven outlook, then no you haven't lost the argument. Under that definition though it would be impossible for you to lose the argument as you are a particularly stubborn person.

If we go by the real world definition in which you have and will continue to have your points dissected, analyzed and then defeated then yes you have.

Also i'd ask you to seriously consider how you come off by calling your point of view "truth" to the rest of the community. Are you our EVE messiah?


You've dissected and disproved nothing, and the bad thing is you know it. All you've done is demonstrated your penchant for being disillusion , which makes you fit in perfectly when the "hiding forever in high sec even though it's just a video game " crowd.

The saddest thing is you actually believe what you post. I can't help you with that. Maybe someone else can.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#544 - 2013-09-05 14:28:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
OK Jenn, right now provide tangible evidence that EVEs economy is in bad shape and provide tangible evidence hisec missioning is the reason.

Do not reply with hot air and tripe. People reading the thread including the devs know the difference.

That's two distinctly outlined requests of evidence to support your claim.

And please for the love of Allah stop with your absolutely atrociously worded psychoanalyzations of my character or motivations.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#545 - 2013-09-05 14:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Jenn aSide wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
No one is forcing you out so no that logic doesn't fit. No one in hisec gives a iota about anyone in nullsec, how they play or what they do.


This is a lie. Read any harry forever thread lol.

High sepc people profit from null sec activities they don't even participate in, yet whine whine when people point out high sec imbalances to them. If people like you could be honest for 5 seconds you'd see why.


I'm not sure if a harry forever thread is a litmus test for the majority of high-sec.

I mean anecdotally, I don't care about null secs income, but I'm sure some do, but it doesn't mean everyone in hi-sec cares about null sec or even a majority cares.

I mean have you started a poll asking hi-sec people what they thought null sec?

How do you know what the majority of them thinks then?

You're just making assumptions as usually from your personal perspective and assuming they are the facts for everyone.

I'm not really whining and complaining about imablances, I am simply asking for evidence with actual hard data.

Its what everyone should do... Even on facts like global warming, you should ask "Show me the evidence for your global warming!" and people then can show you a consensus of a great deal of scientists data and you can go "Ok that makes sense!"

Otherwise you just assume what everyone on the internet tells you is true and you're going to have a bad time if you do that.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#546 - 2013-09-05 14:32:17 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
OK Jenn, right now provide tangible evidence that EVEs economy is in bad shape and provide tangible evidence hisec missioning is the reason.


Provide me tangible evidence that I ever said anyhting of the sort.

That's really your problem. You tried to put words into my mouth, someone decided that I was making a claim I wasn't then when I don't back up a claim I never made, you declare victory. It simply means you are a liar at heart.

Go back, read what I said, then lets talk about that.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#547 - 2013-09-05 14:33:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
OK Jenn, right now provide tangible evidence that EVEs economy is in bad shape and provide tangible evidence hisec missioning is the reason.

Do not reply with hot air and tripe. People reading the thread including the devs know the difference.

That's two distinctly outlined requests of evidence to support your claim.

And please for the love of Allah stop with your psychoanalyzations of my character or motivations.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#548 - 2013-09-05 14:33:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
OK Jenn, right now provide tangible evidence that EVEs economy is in bad shape and provide tangible evidence hisec missioning is the reason.


Provide me tangible evidence that I ever said anyhting of the sort.

That's really your problem. You tried to put words into my mouth, someone decided that I was making a claim I wasn't then when I don't back up a claim I never made, you declare victory. It simply means you are a liar at heart.

Go back, read what I said, then lets talk about that.


We aren't asking you to tell us that you can provide data, we are asking you to back up your statements with actual evidence.

Thats not putting words into your mouth, that is asking you if you can prove what you say is true.

If you can't provide evidence with data from CCP, then well we have no logical reason to believe you.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#549 - 2013-09-05 14:37:21 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:


I'm not sure if a harry forever thread is a litmus test for the majority of high-sec.

I mean anecdotally, I don't care about null secs income, but I'm sure some do, but it doesn't mean everyone in hi-sec cares about null sec or even a majority cares.

I mean have you started a poll asking hi-sec people what they thought null sec?


You know, i've found something that you high sec folks have in common. You tend to try to "fill in the blanks" with what amount to guesses rather than reading a statement in it's simplest possible context. you're doing the same thing Caliph mohammed did.

Where did I say anything about the majority of high sec? I said "high sec posters". most EVE players don't post on the forms.


Quote:

How do you know what the majority of them thinks then?

You're just making assumptions as usually from your personal perspective and assuming they are the facts for everyone.

I'm not really whining and complaining about imbalances, I am simply asking for evidence with actual hard data.

Its what everyone should do... Even on facts like global warming, you should ask "Show me the evidence for your global warming!" and people then can show you a consensus of a great deal of scientists data and you can go "Ok that makes sense!"

Otherwise you just assume what everyone on the internet tells you is true and you're going to have a bad time if you do that.


This is the problem with your way of thinking and why you tend to be wrong. You make assumptions about meaning instead of asking for clarification of meaning (and , like others, when your misunderstanding is presented to you, you get defensive).

In college I remember taking the standard communications course where we talked about barriers to communication. You tend to display many of them, it would help us all if you'd stop for a second and realize you're doing that.

I do not know or care what a majority of high sec thinks, btw.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#550 - 2013-09-05 14:38:47 UTC
OK Jenn, right now provide tangible evidence that EVEs economy is in bad shape and provide tangible evidence hisec missioning is the reason.

Do not reply with hot air and tripe. People reading the thread including the devs know the difference.

That's two distinctly outlined requests of evidence to support your claim.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#551 - 2013-09-05 14:40:44 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
OK Jenn, right now provide tangible evidence that EVEs economy is in bad shape and provide tangible evidence hisec missioning is the reason.


Provide me tangible evidence that I ever said anyhting of the sort.

That's really your problem. You tried to put words into my mouth, someone decided that I was making a claim I wasn't then when I don't back up a claim I never made, you declare victory. It simply means you are a liar at heart.

Go back, read what I said, then lets talk about that.


We aren't asking you to tell us that you can provide data, we are asking you to back up your statements with actual evidence.

Thats not putting words into your mouth, that is asking you if you can prove what you say is true.

If you can't provide evidence with data from CCP, then well we have no logical reason to believe you.



Ok, link the statement. Both of you are too biased to see your own mistakes in the discussion. That Caliph guy is claiming that I said missions are somehow killing the EVE economy, he litterally blamed me for his own cognitive shortcomings lol. And I'm saying that this is very common amongst the high sec poster crowd.

The smarter thing to do is say "I don't get what you are saying, please clarify". It is the mark of a lazy mind to just to conclusions as you two seem to do.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#552 - 2013-09-05 14:41:15 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
OK Jenn, right now provide tangible evidence that EVEs economy is in bad shape and provide tangible evidence hisec missioning is the reason.

Do not reply with hot air and tripe. People reading the thread including the devs know the difference.

That's two distinctly outlined requests of evidence to support your claim.


What is wrong with you?
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#553 - 2013-09-05 14:41:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
OK Jenn, right now, provide tangible evidence that EVEs economy is in bad shape and provide tangible evidence hisec missioning is the reason.

Do not reply with hot air and tripe. People reading the thread including the devs know the difference.

That's two distinctly outlined requests of evidence to support your claim.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#554 - 2013-09-05 14:42:16 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
If by losing the argument you mean having been forced to back away from your biased, factless, unproven outlook, then no you haven't lost the argument.
Wait. What “biased, factless, unproven outlook” is this? And when was he forced to back down from it?

Quote:
Anytime those EVE colleagues want to actually put up an argument that the rest of the world could read and find worthy i'll gladly address them as well.
You haven't so far, so that seems unlikely…

Quote:
OK Jenn, right now provide tangible evidence that EVEs economy is in bad shape and provide tangible evidence hisec missioning is the reason.
Why should he provide evidence for a position he doesn't hold?
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#555 - 2013-09-05 14:43:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
What position does he hold?

Mines clear and concise, hisec missioning is fine as is the rewards. Anyone that can provide evidence to the contrary is welcome to provide it.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#556 - 2013-09-05 14:44:47 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
OK Jenn, right now provide tangible evidence that EVEs economy is in bad shape and provide tangible evidence hisec missioning is the reason.

Do not reply with hot air and tripe. People reading the thread including the devs know the difference.

That's two distinctly outlined requests of evidence to support your claim.


And now you're just trolling, which is jiuvenile. You're not an adult and this not worth replying to.

All you have to do is go back in this thread, find where I made such a claim and link it.

You can't. I win. Feel free to undock your space ships and self destruct in shame.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#557 - 2013-09-05 14:46:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
What position does he hold?

Mines clear and concise, hisec missioning is fine as is the rewards. Anyone that can provide evidence to the contrary is welcome to provide it.

The risk is acceptable as well. The faster you wish to complete the missions the more ISK you put into the ship. Any evidence to the contrary can be provided as well.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#558 - 2013-09-05 14:46:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
What position does he hold?

So you don't know. Ok. Then maybe you should stop asking him to support one that you've just picked at random, because constant strawman argumentation aren't really doing you any good, hmm?

Quote:
Mines clear and concise, hisec missioning is fine as is the rewards.
Do you have any evidence to support this?
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#559 - 2013-09-05 14:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
I understand perfectly even through the convoluted paragraphs of hot air what the position is. But i'd like for you or he to clarify it perfectly in your own words so when we lock it down we can decapitate it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#560 - 2013-09-05 14:50:44 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
I understand perfectly even through the convoluted paragraphs of hot air what the position is.
So what is it?