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Stealth bomber effectiveness
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whyumad tho
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-09-05 01:33:08 UTC
I'm curious if there's any planned re balancing for SBs. Overall their effectiveness in the last few years has risen sharply to the point that certain entities now use them exclusively to grind structures. Not only are they effective at grinding they are also a deterrent to any gangs willing to try and engage the fleet grinding sov, as bombing has become significantly easier, through both odysseys probing re-balance and through bombing technique improving.

I believe the stealth bomber has become too overpowered in both its bombing capabilities (making way too much of an impact in large fleet fights) and it's ability to lay down dps. I read not too long ago (I think it was Fozzy that mentioned it) that a ship with several advantageous uses are not well liked at ccp. Are there any plans to re-balance it in the near future?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2013-09-05 01:59:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
whyumad tho wrote:
Overall their effectiveness in the last few years has risen sharply to the point that certain entities now use them exclusively to grind structures.

Stealth Bomber capabilities have not increased or decreased over the years. They've just gotten more popular.

If anything, they might need a slight fitting buff as they are damn hard to fit.

whyumad tho wrote:
Not only are they (1) effective at grinding they are also (2) a deterrent to any gangs willing to try and engage the fleet grinding sov, as bombing has become significantly easier, through both odysseys probing re-balance and through bombing technique improving.


(1a). Any ship type is "effective" at grinding SOV with enough numbers.

(2a). Mmmm... how about tinkering with the probing mechanics so you can't probe someone down in less than 6 seconds rather than nerf one of the few ways smaller forces can deal with being outnumbered?
If you do this then you'll kill two birds with one stone and make long range sniping viable again!

whyumad tho wrote:
I read not too long ago (I think it was Fozzy that mentioned it) that a ship with several advantageous uses are not well liked at ccp.

I read the same thing. Fozzy was referring to ship "specialties" rather than how ships were used. Basically;
- multiple "specialties" on one ship = bad.
- using a ship in many different ways = good.

The difference between the two is subtle, but it's there.

How did you Veterans start?
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#3 - 2013-09-05 02:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Countering SBs has to be one of the most trivial things in the game. Bombers do about the DPS of a t1 cruiser and are the slowest and squishiest frigates in the game. They are either strictly support weapons that die when sneezed at in any kind of fleet fight (when using torps), or can be completely and totally countered by simply spreading out slightly.
whyumad tho
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-09-05 02:21:49 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
whyumad tho wrote:
Overall their effectiveness in the last few years has risen sharply to the point that certain entities now use them exclusively to grind structures.

Stealth Bomber capabilities have not increased or decreased over the years. They've just gotten more popular.

If anything, they might need a slight fitting buff as they are damn hard to fit.


They have been indirectly increased, the ability to bomb more effectively has made large fleet fights a cat and mouse game of aligning and trying to spam warp every few minutes to avoid losing the entire fleet.

ShahFluffers wrote:
(1a). Any ship type is "effective" at grinding SOV in with enough numbers.


Grinding a TCU with 80 rifters or even 80 high dps afs doesn't sound quite as appealing or viable as grinding them in 600 dps torp boats that can cloak, does it?


ShahFluffers wrote:
(2a). Mmmm... how about tinkering with the probing mechanics so you can't probe someone down in less than 6 seconds rather than nerf one of the few ways smaller forces can deal with being outnumbered?
If you do this then you'll kill two birds with one stone and make long range sniping viable again!


Tinkering with probe mechanics isn't the answer as that was the main selling point of odyssey (to make probing and exploration more accessible).
I remember another way in which a much smaller force was able to deal with a larger one, and after years of kicking and crying titan tracking was eventually nerfed and the most expensive and powerful ship in the game was made nearly useless in combat. If ccp are willing to nerf an 90bil isk ship because it was too effective against larger numbers then I see no reason why a 25mil isk frig can't be nerfed for the same reason.

ShahFluffers wrote:
I read the same thing. Fozzy was referring to ship "specialties" rather than how ships were used. Basically;
- multiple "specialties" on one ship = bad.
- using a ship in many different ways = good.

The difference between the two is subtle, but it's there.


A stealth bomber is able to warp cloaked, apply 600 dps, and is the only ships able to launch bombs that do massive damage. Sound pretty specialized to me.
Simc0m
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-09-05 04:12:52 UTC
I think if they re-balance SBs they should change how bomb damage works. 100% damage up to 15km is kind of dumb. The damage should vary based on how far away you are from the bomb. For example maybe the detonation point could deal 3x damage up to 500m and then decrease from there so that at the outer edge of the blast radius the damage would only be maybe 10%. That way it involves more skill on the part of the SB fleets to strategically place bombs, and any fast moving quick thinking ship might be able to escape major damage by reacting quickly when bombs are launched by moving away from the point of detonation. Just makes more sense that way, I would love to get this worked into any future SB re-balance.
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#6 - 2013-09-05 04:51:10 UTC
Everything that Fluffers said. For the love of all that is holy, leave my bombers ALONE. They are probably the ship that is least in need of a rebalance. Tell me who touched your bum so I can thank them for this unnecessary whinethread. Bombs are ineffective in groups of more than 8, you can't mix bomb types, and yeah, they cover a 15km area. Your signature radius is the most prevalent metric when determining bomb damage, if you find yourself in a battlecruiser or battleship getting bombed, YOU or YOUR Fleet Commander did something wrong, not the guy throwing the bomb. Butthurt is not a suitable reason to nerf a ship that is already a glass cannon.

Simc0m: Your proposal would make bombs so ineffective that no one would ever use them. How many ships are unable to travel 500m in a 10 second period? Bomb AoE damage is fine, stop running your MWD and stop getting yourself into the position to be bombed. In other words, HTFU.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#7 - 2013-09-05 04:52:42 UTC
"Sentry domis are too powerful!" says everyone. "just bomb off the drones!"
now
"Bombers are too effective!"

TL;DR - waah waah more crying

Sure, bombers are used for grinding structures. This is because they are fast, agile, cheap, able to cloak when enemies turn up to blat them, do decent DPS with decent range projection (60km). People use them to do the boring grunt work because of ease of force projection (covert cyno + BLOPs = 50 bombers shunted 5LY = dead TCU). Reducing their utility for this work will just annoy people who have to attend CTA's to grind stupid stuff for stupid reasons for stupid lengths of time.

Their downsides are significant - you can be jammed by a single EC-300 or a ECM burst. You have the EHP of a wet tissue. You can be locked and alpha'd by a Nado or naga who will warp out before your bombs land. You are utterly dead if a ceptor or an AF gets in amongst your gang, and people can counter-bomb you and clean you all up. plus, if you jump your bomber gang onto a JB camp or (heaven forfend) a pipe bomb, it's light out everyone.

They are only useful in fleet fights now that mutual decloaking doesn't happen. Which is hardly going to be reversed. So harden up and deal with bomber wings being warped around by the Wing Commander and coordinating easily. Sure, it used to be nearly impossible prior to this change, but that doesn't make bombers OP. its just made them easier (read: possible) to use.

Same deal with the bomb sight widget. Prior to this you had to practise and take whole minutes, and co-ordinating a bomb run was a nightmare. Doesn't mean you couldn't do it or it's got more effective - it's just now not ridiculously stupid hard.

Combat probing is much improved. This is only an issue for people who can't stay aligned. Last time I checked, it wasnt so easy to carry more than 3 bombs in a bomber. So you'd better not screw up your bombing run three times (c.f. also the sentry domi suffers the same problems) or you'll have to go home to pick up a reload. That's a drawback.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#8 - 2013-09-05 06:17:06 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
whyumad tho wrote:
They have been indirectly increased, the ability to bomb more effectively has made large fleet fights a cat and mouse game of aligning and trying to spam warp every few minutes to avoid losing the entire fleet.

And? I fail to see the problem here.

Most fights are "cat-and-mouse games" to begin with... neither side willing to commit until the other side has tipped their hand.
And if you are afraid of bombing runs... might I suggest you spread the fleet out a bit more rather than balling them up? Or how about using Armor HACs? Keeping your signature radius low makes bombs deal significantly lighter damage (because applied bomb damage is dependent on that).

whyumad tho wrote:
Grinding a TCU with 80 rifters or even 80 high dps afs doesn't sound quite as appealing or viable as grinding them in 600 dps torp boats that can cloak, does it?

If they are expendable and you have the numbers... it's perfectly viable. And TCU grinding is not appealing in any way no matter what ship you bring.

whyumad tho wrote:
Tinkering with probe mechanics isn't the answer as that was the main selling point of odyssey (to make probing and exploration more accessible).

I never said anything about making probing "less accessible." Simply making it harder or take longer to pinpoint someone would do.

whyumad tho wrote:
I remember another way in which a much smaller force was able to deal with a larger one, and after years of kicking and crying titan tracking was eventually nerfed and the most expensive and powerful ship in the game was made nearly useless in combat. If ccp are willing to nerf an 90bil isk ship because it was too effective against larger numbers then I see no reason why a 25mil isk frig can't be nerfed for the same reason.

The reason Titans were repeatedly nerfed was because...

- in the case of the AoE Doomsday... one or two people could effectively end the efforts of everyone on grid... regardless of their ship size or numbers. Stealth Bombers require half a dozen people to pull off a "good" bombing run and are limited to a 15km sphere that they have to "aim" at.
- they have large amounts of EHP. Stealth Bombers are lucky if they can pull off enough EHP to not insta-pop from a Destroyer.
- they are immune to all Ewar except that from the HIC. Stealth Bombers are not.
- they can jump drive in and out of a battlefield. Stealth Bomber have to get places the old fashioned way (exception: Black Ops... but this is a lot harder than it seems).
- some combination of all of the above.


tldr... Titans were nerfed because they gave too much power to too few people with too few penalties. Stealth Bombers require large amounts teamwork to use effectively and pay heavily for their abilities.

whyumad tho wrote:
A stealth bomber is able to warp cloaked, apply 600 dps, and is the only ships able to launch bombs that do massive damage. Sound pretty specialized to me.

Yep. They are specialized in taking out large, slow ships and large, slow groups. Outside of this, they fail miserably.

They are effectively "one-trick-ponies" that can't stand up to anything smaller or faster than a cruiser.

How did you Veterans start?
whyumad tho
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-09-05 12:31:13 UTC
Balthazar Lestrane wrote:
Everything that Fluffers said. For the love of all that is holy, leave my bombers ALONE. They are probably the ship that is least in need of a rebalance. Tell me who touched your bum so I can thank them for this unnecessary whinethread. Bombs are ineffective in groups of more than 8, you can't mix bomb types, and yeah, they cover a 15km area.
.


lmao, yeah bombs are ineffective in groups of 8+, that's why we see 100 man bomber fleets every big fight.
whyumad tho
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-09-05 12:52:27 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:

And? I fail to see the problem here.

Most fights are "cat-and-mouse games" to begin with... neither side willing to commit until the other side has tipped their hand.
And if you are afraid of bombing runs... might I suggest you spread the fleet out a bit more rather than balling them up? Or how about using Armor HACs? Keeping your signature radius low makes bombs deal significantly lighter damage (because applied bomb damage is dependent on that).


So your solutions is don't use BS in fleets? Wow, if only everyone had already thought of that, yeah let's pretend an effective class of ship shouldn't be used anymore due to a 25mil frigate.

ShahFluffers wrote:
If they are expendable and you have the numbers... it's perfectly viable. And TCU grinding is not appealing in any way no matter what ship you bring.


No it isn't appealing, however using stealth bombers means it's risk free, if any hostiles enter local you can merely cloak. This means less actual fights for all parties.



ShahFluffers wrote:
I never said anything about making probing "less accessible." Simply making it harder or take longer to pinpoint someone would do.


Making something harder is making it less accessible.

ShahFluffers wrote:


- they can jump drive in and out of a battlefield. Stealth Bomber have to get places the old fashioned way (exception: Black Ops... but this is a lot harder than it seems).


I have yet to be in a sb fleet that hasn't been black ops bridged both into destination and back out of it, it's risk free, this is the norm for most/all 0.0 alliances that use stealth bombers.






ShahFluffers wrote:
Yep. They are specialized in taking out large, slow ships and large, slow groups. Outside of this, they fail miserably.

They are effectively "one-trick-ponies" that can't stand up to anything smaller or faster than a cruiser.


Again, you're wrong, here's a video of 'goku fleet', a concept which uses bombers with tank/logis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZNX4H53DVw

This video has them beating a wolf fleet (frigates), for a ship that "can't stand up to anything smaller or faster than a cruiser" it does pretty well, no?
whyumad tho
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-09-05 13:02:36 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
"Sentry domis are too powerful!" says everyone. "just bomb off the drones!"
now
"Bombers are too effective!"


Pretty sure domis were nerfed.



Trinkets friend wrote:
Sure, bombers are used for grinding structures. This is because they are fast, agile, cheap, able to cloak when enemies turn up to blat them, do decent DPS with decent range projection (60km). People use them to do the boring grunt work because of ease of force projection (covert cyno + BLOPs = 50 bombers shunted 5LY = dead TCU). Reducing their utility for this work will just annoy people who have to attend CTA's to grind stupid stuff for stupid reasons for stupid lengths of time.


"Why can't we easily grind these structures in peace?"

Trinkets friend wrote:
Their downsides are significant - you can be jammed by a single EC-300 or a ECM burst. You have the EHP of a wet tissue. You can be locked and alpha'd by a Nado or naga who will warp out before your bombs land. You are utterly dead if a ceptor or an AF gets in amongst your gang, and people can counter-bomb you and clean you all up. plus, if you jump your bomber gang onto a JB camp or (heaven forfend) a pipe bomb, it's light out everyone.


Yeah, you're right, they are vulnerable to nados/afs/gate camps. If only they had some way of evading these things, like a cov ops cloa...oh wait.


Trinkets friend wrote:
Combat probing is much improved. This is only an issue for people who can't stay aligned. Last time I checked, it wasnt so easy to carry more than 3 bombs in a bomber. So you'd better not screw up your bombing run three times (c.f. also the sentry domi suffers the same problems) or you'll have to go home to pick up a reload. That's a drawback.


Again, if only there was some sort of covert ops hauler (pro tip, there is) that could carry many bombs and bridge through the black ops into destination, ready to hand out bombs once the fleet had used the 4 they had. I mean seriously, do you even play this game?
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#12 - 2013-09-05 13:49:41 UTC
The domi wasn't nerfed, it's bonuses were just lowered slightly, that's included in their role since tcus are among the things that torpedos apply full damage to before target painters, bring interceptors or covert ops probers fit with a gun, and last but certainly the least valid argument, so whay if they can be resupplied? By getting a cov ops hauler to carry your ammo you're leaving it in fragile hands and they'll be killed easily if you bring interceptors, which you should do already to counter the bombers.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Sigras
Conglomo
#13 - 2013-09-05 15:30:42 UTC
yeah because what this game needs is MORE blobbing . . .

seriously, why are you trying to get rid of the only effective counter to a large fleet besides a larger fleet?
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#14 - 2013-09-05 16:07:24 UTC
Fess up - Harry got your indy, didn't he!

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
whyumad tho
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-09-05 16:20:32 UTC
Sigras wrote:
yeah because what this game needs is MORE blobbing . . .

seriously, why are you trying to get rid of the only effective counter to a large fleet besides a larger fleet?


It's an effective counter to all kinds of fleets, it's way too versatile.
In terms of "blobbing" you're looking at it the wrong way, the "blobbers" are the group that's able to field several full fleets as well as a 50man bombing fleet, making it harder for a smaller entity to engage them.
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#16 - 2013-09-05 21:15:11 UTC
whyumad tho wrote:
Balthazar Lestrane wrote:
Everything that Fluffers said. For the love of all that is holy, leave my bombers ALONE. They are probably the ship that is least in need of a rebalance. Tell me who touched your bum so I can thank them for this unnecessary whinethread. Bombs are ineffective in groups of more than 8, you can't mix bomb types, and yeah, they cover a 15km area.
.


lmao, yeah bombs are ineffective in groups of 8+, that's why we see 100 man bomber fleets every big fight.


You can't launch more than 8 simultaneously or the bombs end up destroying each other. You see 100 man bomber fleets because there are commanders who know how to time their bombing runs to prevent this. Why I needed to spell this out, I will never know.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2013-09-05 21:16:21 UTC
Show us your lossmails.
whyumad tho
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-09-05 22:10:21 UTC


Balthazar Lestrane wrote:
You can't launch more than 8 simultaneously or the bombs end up destroying each other. You see 100 man bomber fleets because there are commanders who know how to time their bombing runs to prevent this. Why I needed to spell this out, I will never know.


Yeah I know how bombing works, you have bombers at different perches around the hostile fleet, you warp the fleet @30 and none of the squads bombs hit each other. This has been the norm for many years, it has become much easier to do with the new probing mechanics. What do you think I made this thread for? Really, why am I having to walk you through the finer details of bombing.
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#19 - 2013-09-05 22:25:12 UTC
whyumad tho wrote:


Balthazar Lestrane wrote:
You can't launch more than 8 simultaneously or the bombs end up destroying each other. You see 100 man bomber fleets because there are commanders who know how to time their bombing runs to prevent this. Why I needed to spell this out, I will never know.


Yeah I know how bombing works, you have bombers at different perches around the hostile fleet, you warp the fleet @30 and none of the squads bombs hit each other. This has been the norm for many years, it has become much easier to do with the new probing mechanics. What do you think I made this thread for? Really, why am I having to walk you through the finer details of bombing.


So basically the problem isn't with bombs but with probing. Hm. I agree with Danika, show us your lossmails that caused this much butthurt.

I'd also like to point out that you've offered no reasonable "rebalance" for Stealth Bombers, only that you're mad and want them nerfed because of "reasons". Why don't you offer something constructive to "fix" their so-called overpowered nature rather than unleashing tears?
whyumad tho
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-09-05 22:33:22 UTC
Balthazar Lestrane wrote:
So basically the problem isn't with bombs but with probing. Hm. I agree with Danika, show us your lossmails that caused this much butthurt.

I'd also like to point out that you've offered no reasonable "rebalance" for Stealth Bombers, only that you're mad and want them nerfed because of "reasons". Why don't you offer something constructive to "fix" their so-called overpowered nature rather than unleashing tears?


I never once mentioned that bombs aren't the problem,, my point is (and has been) that bombers are too versatile. If you read the thread rather than posting some gibberish about "tears" and "butthurt" you would know that. Also protip, if you're posting about a subject it's a good idea to get an understanding of the subject before posting. Hopefully you will remember that for next time.
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