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The Asymmetric Raven Hull

Author
Velarra
#1 - 2011-11-14 06:58:16 UTC
Have there been any asymmetric hull updates to the Raven model since the release of the Tier 3 battle cruisers on sisi?
Or is it still rather grossly unbalanced?
Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2011-11-14 07:04:39 UTC
New revan model is already on sisi, it is just a high-poly version of the old one (with some small tweaks) and it looks 98% the same.

Caldari ships are meant to be asymmetic. +1 CCP for keeping the old model.
Jazz Styles
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-11-14 07:08:38 UTC
Yeah it looks okay; it was far from the worst model in the game anyway. I like the beefed up engine section on the stern, much better than the tapered version on the old model.

Now when the get to the moa and the osprey, those will need to be done from scratch P
Velarra
#4 - 2011-11-14 07:10:55 UTC
Jodis Talvanen wrote:
New revan model is already on sisi, it is just a high-poly version of the old one (with some small tweaks) and it looks 98% the same.

Caldari ships are meant to be asymmetic. +1 CCP for keeping the old model.


Quite right! The Naga's asymmetry is really quite lovely in its subtle flare. So too the recent Noctis model.
Velarra
#5 - 2011-11-14 07:26:35 UTC
Jazz Styles wrote:
Yeah it looks okay; it was far from the worst model in the game anyway. I like the beefed up engine section on the stern, much better than the tapered version on the old model.

Now when the get to the moa and the osprey, those will need to be done from scratch P


:) Moa yes, .... while at least the osprey isn't overwhelmingly lopsided & confused.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2011-11-14 07:48:35 UTC
New Raven model looks just as godawful as the old one, it's just a higher-definition godawful.

Spaceships are built symmetrical for a goddamn reason, CCP.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Raven Ether
Doomheim
#7 - 2011-11-14 09:04:00 UTC
******** forums ate my message ...






imtooboredtorewrite: asymmetry can be good on a modest level (see naga, rokh) but mega lame like the moa and blackbird. The blackbird is outright ridiculous and isn't even close to making sense, it's the sole reason I'm not bothering with caldari recons.
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
#8 - 2011-11-14 09:26:08 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
New Raven model looks just as godawful as the old one, it's just a higher-definition godawful.

Spaceships are built symmetrical for a goddamn reason, CCP.

CCP should have made ships of one faction all assymmetrical as a special distinguishing feature, not random ships of every faction. It looks messy and unrealistic.

At least we'll get a symmetrical Crow! P
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#9 - 2011-11-14 09:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarn Kugisa
Quote:
CCP should have made ships of one faction all assymmetrical as a special distinguishing feature, not random ships of every faction. It looks messy and unrealistic.

At least we'll get a symmetrical Crow!

I can agree on the symmetry. I like having symmetry on spaceships because it just makes sense. A good example of the most symmetric ship on EVE is either most of the shuttles and the drake.
Also that symmetrical crow looks AWEOSMEBig smile

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt

Saru Koji
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2011-11-14 09:36:11 UTC
I like the raven model and even if I would not, CCP can't change it because of this.
Jazz Styles
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-11-14 10:24:46 UTC
Jennifer Starling wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
New Raven model looks just as godawful as the old one, it's just a higher-definition godawful.

Spaceships are built symmetrical for a goddamn reason, CCP.

CCP should have made ships of one faction all assymmetrical as a special distinguishing feature, not random ships of every faction. It looks messy and unrealistic.

At least we'll get a symmetrical Crow! P

Good god that is freakin awesome! That's what I want to see more of in caldari, SYMMETRY! I didn't even know they were updating that one, fantastic.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#12 - 2011-11-14 11:17:55 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Spaceships are built symmetrical for a goddamn reason, CCP.


What would that reason be? Space friction? Distribution of mass in a weightless environment?
Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#13 - 2011-11-14 11:33:12 UTC
Moments of Inertia over Principal Axis are the reason why everything maneuvreable (stable or unstable) is inherently symetric.

In fact, it puzzles me why th race bent on efficiency (Caldari) failed to spot that little physics cornerstone.... That essentially is unavoidable, unless you want your ships to be predestined into turning better say... left.

Inir Ishtori
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2011-11-14 11:38:46 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Spaceships are built symmetrical for a goddamn reason, CCP.


What would that reason be? Space friction? Distribution of mass in a weightless environment?

if you want to efficiently move an object in a certain direction while in space, you'll want to apply the force to the centre of the mass. which seems pretty hard for the raven given the engines placement and mass distribution of raven's hull.
that thing looks simply pretty stupid from mechanical point of view, imo.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-11-14 11:40:25 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
What would that reason be? Space friction? Distribution of mass in a weightless environment?


Oh, let me think... off the top of my head...

1. Mass distribution in an environment in which mass and the way you distribute it has massive ramifications on the way your vehicle manouvers. If your ship is asymmetrical, it means the amount of thrust you have to give to each side to make the thing fly in a straight line is also asymmetrical. If even one of your engines on one side of the ship gives out, it'll spin along its vertical axis.

2. Homogenisation of ship structural aspects - if one side of the Raven is more vulnerable to certain types of ordinance than the other, the enemy will exploit that flaw.

3. Ease of maintenance and production. If a ship is notably asymmetrical you'll have to manufacture seperate parts for each side.

4. Standardisation of docking facilities is notably easier.

5. Aesthetic sensibility! For heaven's sake, asymmetrical ships are UGLY!

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Velarra
#16 - 2011-11-14 13:29:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Velarra
Saru Koji wrote:
I like the raven model and even if I would not, CCP can't change it because of this.


It would be a very heartwarming show of faith, will to change from the 'greed is good' mantra, and determination to refocus on flying in space if the Raven hull model was properly balanced despite such things.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#17 - 2011-11-14 13:43:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
What would that reason be? Space friction? Distribution of mass in a weightless environment?


Oh, let me think... off the top of my head...

1. Mass distribution in an environment in which mass and the way you distribute it has massive ramifications on the way your vehicle manouvers. If your ship is asymmetrical, it means the amount of thrust you have to give to each side to make the thing fly in a straight line is also asymmetrical. If even one of your engines on one side of the ship gives out, it'll spin along its vertical axis.

2. Homogenisation of ship structural aspects - if one side of the Raven is more vulnerable to certain types of ordinance than the other, the enemy will exploit that flaw.

3. Ease of maintenance and production. If a ship is notably asymmetrical you'll have to manufacture seperate parts for each side.

4. Standardisation of docking facilities is notably easier.

5. Aesthetic sensibility! For heaven's sake, asymmetrical ships are UGLY!


1: So, you're saying there's nothing wrong with asymmetry as long as it is compensated for in the distribution of thrust? I agree.
2: Caldari rely on their shields to absorb damage, so this is pretty much irrelevant.
3: Are the two wings of an F16 interchangeable? No, they are not.
4: This is an argument for homogenising ship design, not for symmetry.
5: Beauty is not something the Caldari strive for in ship design. Besides, some degree of asymmetry can still be aesthetically appealing.
Velarra
#18 - 2011-11-14 13:48:22 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
5: Beauty is not something the Caldari strive for in ship design. Besides, some degree of asymmetry can still be aesthetically appealing.


Much like the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio
Pyre leFay
Doomheim
#19 - 2011-11-14 15:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Pyre leFay
If we wanted function and utility and real world realities of a space born craft that will never reenter atmosphere. it would be just a sphere or some other very standardized shape like a cylinder. Wow. exciting game.
Nothing wrong with symmetry. I imagine most players physically look rather symmetrical. Yet I like spaceships with wild doo-dads and sensors and wings and death blossoms.
When the frame itself has a horrible flaw that would look like a bad idea even in a cartoon (the paper thin hull connecting the old scorpions tail to the main body) That deserves a grisly death. Yet I never did mind it having one wing.
And the current raven would look just fine. If it was a mini carrier. It never gave me a sense of torpedo lobber and tanker to me. Its really role vs overall shape to me.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2011-11-14 15:24:39 UTC
Pyre leFay wrote:
If we wanted function and utility and real world realities of a space born craft that will never reenter atmosphere. it would be just a sphere or some other very standardized shape like a cylinder. Wow. exciting game.
Nothing wrong with symmetry. I imagine most players physically look rather symmetrical. Yet I like spaceships with wild doo-dads and sensors and wings and death blossoms.
When the frame itself has a horrible flaw that would look like a bad idea even in a cartoon (the paper thin hull connecting the old scorpions tail to the main body) That deserves a grisly death. Yet I never did mind it having one wing.



Nothing is wrong with the Moa. Right?

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

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