EVE General Discussion

One might also argue that sec status should be more of an impedance, but that's a different issue.

Given the topic, this was actually a pretty good thread to read, but jesus some people need to have a beer, a ****, and a nap. Not all of them the "carebears".

First, sorry but I wont change the account just to answer with the same char I posted before.

Ok, I read some of the arguments over what I wrote and also similar arguments over what people wrote and the simple thing is:

No one understands that personally, for a veteran player, EVE is perfect as it is, because once you are 3 or 4 years playing, "anything is possible". Even when I start new chars, in new accounts, the weight of years playing EVE with another char makes things much easier, because I know the tricks, things you are told that arent true, and the ability to judge what is good and what isnt. For veteran players you can really choose if you want to combat or not, if you want PVP or not. There is always "another way".

The thing in this post is most likely the same situation that gave me the reason to agree with it, which is when you want to get someone who isnt playing EVE to start playing EVE today. When we started playing EVE it was different, some things worse, somethings better, but it was also "new thing", so many of the things people today wont want in EVE, didnt bothered us in that time. Today anyone doing some research and experiencing the trial time endup seeing that much of CCPs promises are just that, and this is something we didnt had "long ago" because it was still a matter of "finding out".

The market thing, people always get it wrong when someone says it is not player driven, and mostly because even in real life some people do think that there is such thing as free market and demand-supply driven markets. Sad that as in eve, anyone with close relation to foreign affairs authorities know that no single country has free market or supply-demand driven markets. As for New Eden, it is less than an ilusion the player driven market. And that is one point against some other form of EVE playing than PVP and general "blow things up".

Then it comes to the point where people think we are talking about making it easy to non-pvp folks, and it is not about this. It is to make things as hard to combat pilots as it is for industrialists. To become something worthy in industrial eve life, someone needs to learn way more skills than general blow things up. People need to learn skills that deppend on different attributes, and skills that costs A LOT. To become a general gankage tech2 time blow things up "specialist", you need just 2 attributes almost 90% of the skills you need, and all cheap skills, which ammount very little skill points, which in turn makes it easy to store in a cheap clone, which in turn makes it fast, cheap and skill resilient to be a ganker.

Add all that to the fact that you can even get from death-row-like criminal to model citizen in a couple weeks (in average, but some people do it in much less time) and start ganking again. For someone not into combat, it is very expensive to train, to have a clone to keep it, and to restore lost cargo. (remember, I am talking about new players).

Then you think that all people who doesnt like PvP in EVE doesnt like it AT ALL, and you are wrong. Many people would like pvp in EVE if it was something challenging or exciting, but it is not appealing for many people into Sci Fi. The simple fact is that most people into Sci Fi are also into "planning and thinking" and PvP in EVE is just like PVP in any MMORPG, if you have more time playing, the "fit of the week in pvp-eve-guru dot com" there is no room for planning and thinking because it is made exactly to end up like that. Fleet engagements are another story, but there is not much fleet engagements around here, just among the "big dogs" which never change because to be a big dog you need time, ISK and friends, which new players usually dont get because they are new, they cant offer much, and they mostly give up after seeing what gankage can do for you.

What is unique to eve, and it is nice when you compare two people that just play "a little less" than the other, is that a old character is better than a new character that played the same ammount of hours but in less days. Example: if I have a char that has 48 playing, having it in 4 days, it will be less capable of a character having played 48 hours but in 4 weeks. This kind of "veteran elitism" is almost exclusive to EVE.

Then you endup with a place where you need months to be able to do a "acceptable" mining job, piloting a hulk with strip miners and max yield, and just a couple weeks to pilot a model gankage ship. If you dedicate your char to one goal, the ganker you get there sooner, faster, cheaper and will never suffer real loss with the activity, even being able to become a model citizen after years of crime life, without so much as "time served" or bail.

What we want is that PVP in hisec become as hard as that. If you will make skills and stuff cheaper and easier for combat, at least make people choose being a criminal or militia. Once you choose, either way, there is no turning back after a point. Criminals can reach a point where their status of "shoot on sight" become permanent, and no action can change that. Make hisec very tight on concording, dissuading every "blow stuff up activity", so people will have to go blow stuff up in low and null sec. Make even duel and corp pew pew subject to concording. Also make hisec asteroids and general products "almost limitless", droping the prices of hisec materials to bottom. So big industrialists also have to leave hisec. When I say market is not player driven, that is not a bad thing, and a little less player control over what is earned in hisec would be also encouraging to migration to low and nullsec. Make NPC mining corps sell a quota of hisec materials, also dropping the prices.

If you're flying a Catalyst then sure, just like mining in a Venture isn't very difficult. Try looking at the SP requirements for a T2 fit Talos. And before you mention that miner ganks generally happen in cats, remember that any mining barge can trivially be tanked against a single ganking cat. So now the ganker either needs to upship (with associated cost and SP) or bring more pilots than you.



Now you're moving the goalposts on SP requirements. Ratting Catalysts are not very effective. And new players should not be mining in anything that isn't a Venture or Procurer unless they have corpmates to help them out.



Suicide ganking is a very small part of combat, and even that requires an effective scout to blend in with the miners and find targets.



Again, a T2 Talos takes months to train into. And there is real loss, it's called losing your ship to CONCORD. You're going to say that the Hulk pilot is out more isk, and they are, but if they were in a fleet (like the gankers) they would easily be able to protect themselves.



So you want a highsec that's completely unfriendly to new players and worthless then? There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to start.

....but are they doing it well ?

The problem is that CCP will never develop truly harsh consequences. They have made it easier with every patch to repair the "consequences" already in place. The Clone tags are just another easy path for the whiny child who wants to pvp but doesn't have the skills or ability to find a real fight. They act like they are the rebellious type but in reality, ganking miners in highsec is the highest form of CAREBEARING.

Hi. My name is Spine Ripper.... and I'm a ganker.

When I log on in Kino, the miners warn each other that I am there. My scout is probably the most well known player in the area and most of the miners know that if they see him sitting next to them, I am probably inbound. I sport a perfect -10 security status and I am closing on a year old with many level V skills that contribute to my ability to solo kill Rets, Covetors and Hulks. As a Knight of the New Order I TELL the miners what they have to do to avoid being subject to ganking or bumping (10,000,000 ISK for a one year mining permit which is a great economic decision!) There are approximately 125 kill rights active on me right now. ANYBODY can shoot me on sight. If I delay at any point after leaving station in my Catalyst the faction police arrive and attack me.

And yet miners like the OP say that CCP has to change things to help them deal with the likes of me. James 315 has covered all this over and over. The miners want to play a single player game where the object is to make their ISK balance as high as possible. Anyone who interferes with that goal is 1) a criminal, 2) a danger to the future of Eve and 3) obviously a failure in RL. They COULD tank their Procurers, watch local and Dscan, move around, not be AFK and of course, buy a mining permit but instead prefer to pretend that things are horribly unbalanced, that their untanked ships are "defenseless" (duh) and that obviously CCP needs to change things in their favor.

The bottom line is that you miners don't get to play the way you want to. You have to play the way WE want to, unless you stop us. You stop us, not CCP. Every time CCP has given in to your demands, we've made it worse for you. The tools you need are already in game. The information you need is there. The only thing missing is the will to do something.

I kill a lot of miners. Every one of them deserved to be shot because they thought it was perfectly fine to fly an expensive, untanked mining ship up next to an asteroid or block of ice, start the lasers and go do the laundry. They refuse to buy a mining permit when told to in local despite the promise that not having one would lead to ganking. They think that people who shoot ships in Eve have GOT to be stopped.

These players deserve to lose their ships. I intend to kill many, many more.

So, are the NPC police or the players harder to avoid

OP is not that person though. If hes not lying out of his teeth he wants to fight back. Declare war etc but cant.

Oh boo hoo hes identified the consequences and adjusted how he does things to accomodate them, time to change the rules because god forbid people use their brains in this game.

As for your last statement you do realise thats what he wants, for miners to actually act on their threats and start fighting back within the accepted game mechannics rather than simply whining at CCP to change the rules because they cant cope.