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Incursion: No medium repairers on Logistics!
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Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#41 - 2013-08-11 07:55:22 UTC
There is so much wrong here its not funny.

1. Cap stability doesn't matter. If you don't have at least one Marauder that can feed you cap for at least a minute or two, there's something wrong.
2. If it's a TDF fleet, then it's going to be ridiculously over-tanked and you should be able to keep the entire fleet up with just 2 reppers.
3. Your setup will work. It might even work better. But as far as you need to concern yourself, what the FC says is more or less the "Word of God" in his fleet, and if you don't like it... there's the door. If a ship explodes, that's on the FC's head, not yours. 100% responsibility means he has 100% authority in his fleets, if he says no medium reppers, then no medium reppers it is. End of story.
4. Honestly logi's are basically not needed in a good VG fleet. The battleships should all have remote reps they can use. If you're losing ships to a disconnect, then your entire fleet is bad.
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2013-08-14 12:08:41 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
It makes sense to me as far as the math and tradeoffs, but did you not say that it pulls the damage drones off the logi in order to make the rep difference up?
Perhaps the FC had a fleet that was taking too long as his drone bunny had too few drones, and thus wanted the damage drones.


No, what I mean is, that it is very common that most gangs rather throw away 70 hps/s with medium T2 remote rep drones for 100 dps with hobgoblins. The difference in hp/s compared to a full T2 large RR fitting is even less.

Paikis wrote:
There is so much wrong here its not funny.

1. Cap stability doesn't matter. If you don't have at least one Marauder that can feed you cap for at least a minute or two, there's something wrong.
2. If it's a TDF fleet, then it's going to be ridiculously over-tanked and you should be able to keep the entire fleet up with just 2 reppers.
3. Your setup will work. It might even work better. But as far as you need to concern yourself, what the FC says is more or less the "Word of God" in his fleet, and if you don't like it... there's the door. If a ship explodes, that's on the FC's head, not yours. 100% responsibility means he has 100% authority in his fleets, if he says no medium reppers, then no medium reppers it is. End of story.
4. Honestly logi's are basically not needed in a good VG fleet. The battleships should all have remote reps they can use. If you're losing ships to a disconnect, then your entire fleet is bad.


This is the logi fitting that I use in the fleet you often mention...

Cap stability does matter, the main reason why it a very high run time is preferred is to reduce micromanagement to a minimum(for very practical reasons, because you want to focus on other things). Sure you can use a marauder to cap them up, but again that's micromanagement that can be easily avoided, reducing chances of players screwing it up to a minimum.

A BS spider tank is not sustainable, while it easily prevents any losses for a site or two without logis, you will cap yourself out over the sites, you lose focus for applying dps(meaning losing ISK to longer site times) and you need lots of micromanagement that is a pita for any gang that runs for hours with the same players. While the idea sounds solid, it doesn't provide better ISK/h, we tested it.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2013-08-22 07:54:38 UTC
Paikis wrote:
There is so much wrong here its not funny.

1. Cap stability doesn't matter. If you don't have at least one Marauder that can feed you cap for at least a minute or two, there's something wrong.
2. If it's a TDF fleet, then it's going to be ridiculously over-tanked and you should be able to keep the entire fleet up with just 2 reppers.
3. Your setup will work. It might even work better. But as far as you need to concern yourself, what the FC says is more or less the "Word of God" in his fleet, and if you don't like it... there's the door. If a ship explodes, that's on the FC's head, not yours. 100% responsibility means he has 100% authority in his fleets, if he says no medium reppers, then no medium reppers it is. End of story.
4. Honestly logi's are basically not needed in a good VG fleet. The battleships should all have remote reps they can use. If you're losing ships to a disconnect, then your entire fleet is bad.


pretty much this. Once you get your FC badge, then you can start to change doctrine. Till then, either nut up or shut up.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#44 - 2013-08-28 03:13:12 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Paikis wrote:
There is so much wrong here its not funny.

1. Cap stability doesn't matter. If you don't have at least one Marauder that can feed you cap for at least a minute or two, there's something wrong.
2. If it's a TDF fleet, then it's going to be ridiculously over-tanked and you should be able to keep the entire fleet up with just 2 reppers.
3. Your setup will work. It might even work better. But as far as you need to concern yourself, what the FC says is more or less the "Word of God" in his fleet, and if you don't like it... there's the door. If a ship explodes, that's on the FC's head, not yours. 100% responsibility means he has 100% authority in his fleets, if he says no medium reppers, then no medium reppers it is. End of story.
4. Honestly logi's are basically not needed in a good VG fleet. The battleships should all have remote reps they can use. If you're losing ships to a disconnect, then your entire fleet is bad.


pretty much this. Once you get your FC badge, then you can start to change doctrine. Till then, either nut up or shut up.

Says the man with the ospreys.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#45 - 2013-08-28 05:15:02 UTC
People who don't think for themselves and question authority fail at life. Period.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2013-08-28 10:22:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Once you get your FC badge, then you can start to change doctrine. Till then, either nut up or shut up.


Just for your interest, I am a TDF FC. I also know fairly good what works and what not, and I use this knowledge mostly to give newer newer players and hulls that get not picked up by other gangs a chance to get on grid(because they are not the most requested ones and often not pimp fitted), explaining them what and how to do stuff in the sites and I am always up for the challenge as FC running with a by no means optimized gang in systems where I have to contest with multiple better skilled and equipped shield gangs(and I win most contests, by better scouting, explaining people exactly what we do in the next site and timing, not by using tons of bling and optimized contest setups).
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#47 - 2013-08-28 12:53:05 UTC
TLDR: TDF sucks

Not today spaghetti.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2013-09-05 05:21:22 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Once you get your FC badge, then you can start to change doctrine. Till then, either nut up or shut up.


Just for your interest, I am a TDF FC. I also know fairly good what works and what not, and I use this knowledge mostly to give newer newer players and hulls that get not picked up by other gangs a chance to get on grid(because they are not the most requested ones and often not pimp fitted), explaining them what and how to do stuff in the sites and I am always up for the challenge as FC running with a by no means optimized gang in systems where I have to contest with multiple better skilled and equipped shield gangs(and I win most contests, by better scouting, explaining people exactly what we do in the next site and timing, not by using tons of bling and optimized contest setups).


You're a TDF FC.... and you got rejected from a fleet... I honestly dont know what to say...
Sturmwolke
#49 - 2013-09-05 06:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
Jill, there's very little reason to reason to fit a medium repper for _veteran_ incursion runners. Why? Fittings have little issues.
Cap? Not a significant issue. You should know better.

Repair amount aren't purely numbers to look at, you need to look at armor repair balance when you need to spread out your reps sometimes. 1 large + 1 med simply does not cut it.
Understand the basic teamwork that's involved when pairing reps. You get 4 spreads. Don't screw around under-repping targets because :
a) you or other logis may need to commit another large repper to compensate, effectively denying its use for the others or as reserve.
b) you'll annoy your other logi partner(s).

Fleet standard and consistency is important. Once you start teaching people that med reppers are ok, it'll send the wrong message. Yes, I get the people who wants to fit med reps to min-max cap because the 4th repper is sometimes rarely used, however, a SOLID fleet runs on 4 large. The same way you can get away with running a 1 slot tank Paladin, it doesn't mean you can use in normal public fleets.

The major aim for the eve-survival fits is to work towards standardized fits that works, whilst optimally balanced in defence and dps. It's not about hardcore min-max. Medium reps on logis will never be accepted as a standard for public fleets, there's simply no compelling case for it.

tl;dr - Getting away with something is different from what works as a standard.

Another thing, Exp resist is completely unecessary for the Oneiros, which truly wastes a slot. Oh, don't take my word it, run the numbers and test it yourself.
Do your homework.
Aplier Shivra
#50 - 2013-09-05 18:08:49 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
Jill, there's very little reason to reason to fit a medium repper for _veteran_ incursion runners. Why? Fittings have little issues.
Cap? Not a significant issue. You should know better.

Repair amount aren't purely numbers to look at, you need to look at armor repair balance when you need to spread out your reps sometimes. 1 large + 1 med simply does not cut it.
Understand the basic teamwork that's involved when pairing reps. You get 4 spreads. Don't screw around under-repping targets because :
a) you or other logis may need to commit another large repper to compensate, effectively denying its use for the others or as reserve.
b) you'll annoy your other logi partner(s).

Fleet standard and consistency is important. Once you start teaching people that med reppers are ok, it'll send the wrong message. Yes, I get the people who wants to fit med reps to min-max cap because the 4th repper is sometimes rarely used, however, a SOLID fleet runs on 4 large. The same way you can get away with running a 1 slot tank Paladin, it doesn't mean you can use in normal public fleets.

The major aim for the eve-survival fits is to work towards standardized fits that works, whilst optimally balanced in defence and dps. It's not about hardcore min-max. Medium reps on logis will never be accepted as a standard for public fleets, there's simply no compelling case for it.

tl;dr - Getting away with something is different from what works as a standard.

Another thing, Exp resist is completely unecessary for the Oneiros, which truly wastes a slot. Oh, don't take my word it, run the numbers and test it yourself.
Do your homework.


In case you missed the math at the very beginning, a deadspace A type medium repper gives pretty close to the amount that a meta 4 large does ( about 80%), and one a-type medium/3 T2 large setup gives more total rep power than 4 meta 4 large, while using far less capacitor and powergrid. So for the making one other logi have to use an extra rep to compensate, that is no more true than it would be of an all meta 4 large onei, which is supposedly a perfectly acceptable fit. It's not a message of "medium reppers are just as good as large, so you can start using 4 medium reppers now", it's a message of "it's possible get more out of this ship by thinking outside the goddamn box and having one as shiny as possible medium repper and using the fitting needs I save from that to increase my strengths elsewhere, also all without having to use implants just for fitting."

If 4 meta 4 large can make the cut, then 3 T2 large and 1 deadspace medium can make the same cut just as well. I'd rather have a person who can be shown a fit and be able say "this does it better" than someone who just accepts it blindly.

tl;dr - Standard fits are meant to be basic starting points for noob's fits, which people with experience can and should improve upon, and this is an improvement.

Another thing, despite onei's high kin res and low sig radius making up for explosive hole in all but mom fleets, the explosive membrane is to meet TDF's (overtanked) standards of above 70% in all resists.
Do your homework.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#51 - 2013-09-05 23:07:47 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Once you get your FC badge, then you can start to change doctrine. Till then, either nut up or shut up.


Just for your interest, I am a TDF FC. I also know fairly good what works and what not, and I use this knowledge mostly to give newer newer players and hulls that get not picked up by other gangs a chance to get on grid(because they are not the most requested ones and often not pimp fitted), explaining them what and how to do stuff in the sites and I am always up for the challenge as FC running with a by no means optimized gang in systems where I have to contest with multiple better skilled and equipped shield gangs(and I win most contests, by better scouting, explaining people exactly what we do in the next site and timing, not by using tons of bling and optimized contest setups).


You're a TDF FC.... and you got rejected from a fleet... I honestly dont know what to say...


You haven't said anything worthwhile in this thread yet, so why try to start now?

It's always hilarious to read threads that deal with non-standard (yet) fits because so many of the responses were obviously written while the typist was busy licking a nearby window. How do you type while window licking?

We've already had people respond with "downsides" to this fit that aren't actual downsides - they just didn't bother to read the OP in their rush to spurge.

I could see this fit becoming standard in the near future; it just takes threads like this to get the non-window lickers thinking "gee, never thought of that . . . " and before long FCs are asking logi why they're fitting 4 T2s and straight up denying anyone with meta 4 reppers.

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#52 - 2013-09-06 04:11:16 UTC
Quote:
If 4 meta 4 large can make the cut, then 3 T2 large and 1 deadspace medium can make the same cut just as well.


/thread.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
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