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Some Reasonable Changes to Sovereignty Mechanics? Perhaps.

Author
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-09-02 04:12:13 UTC
from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/2013/09/perhaps-some-reasonable-changes-to.html

If you try to make sovereignty mechanics harder on the big guy, you will only end up making it doubly hard for the little guy.

Yes, making sovereignty more accessible for the little guy will make it easier for the big guy. There is no way around that. But, just because you make it easier for the little guy to have some effect in sovereignty nullsec, does not mean that the big guy is just going to automatically roll over everybody.

Two things will stop the big guys from rolling through nullsec, taking everything in their paths. Other big guys. And costs.

This post isn't about a nullsec revamp. It's just about a few "reasonable things" changes that could make sovereignty mechanics a tad more bearable for everyone, and allow a few more options for the little guy.

Infrastructure Hubs (iHubs)
Have you ever tried slow-boating a freighter through nullsec? It's rarely ever done. Even with large support fleets. For good reason. It's a good way to lose a freighter.

Infrastructure hubs only fit into freighters. Basically CCP is telling everyone that unless you own a titan you shouldn't be thinking about owning space. Because if you want to place an iHub, you don't slowboat a freighter to the location, you titan bridge it in.

Super simple change. Lower the m3 of infrastructure hubs so that they can fit into a jump freighter.

Contested Versus Uncontested Space
If a defender wants to actually defend a system that is under attack, they should have to show some good faith in their desire to defend. If they do not wish to defend, then the system is easier to take.

iHubs and stations currently have two timers. Basically reduce these structures to single timers, unless a defender shows a desire to defend, at which point a second timer is added.

How does this work? Any time during the first reinforcement timer, the defender has to drop some amount of "fuel" into the structure. The amount of "fuel" required is such that a jump freighter is necessary for the refueling. The cost of said "fuel" should be in the neighbourhood of 50M to 100M ISK. Enough cost to show intent. If the defender does this, then a second timer is added. If the defender does not do this, then the attacker only has to deal with a single timer.

This allows uncontested space to be conquered more quickly. It also encourages to sov-holding entities to make choices, especially when they have multiple systems under attack.

Sovereignty Blockade Units (SBUs)
Reduce online timers for SBUs from three hours to seven minutes. Basically a fifteen minute process, eight minutes to anchor, and seven minutes to online. This three hour business is simply another way to frustrate players and keep them from actually playing the game.

This allows players to get to the business of attacking systems more quickly.

Hit Points and Resistances
It takes too many ships to threaten a system effectively. Reduce hitpoints and resistances on all sov structures across the board. Perhaps by 50%.

Sure, that means that the big guys can take systems more quickly, but it also means that the big guys are under increased threat. If Black Legion and friends were to attack five different systems across CFC territory at once, the CFC would be hard-pressed to defend them all, even given force projection.

If groups like the CFC and N3 want to own a third of nullsec each, they should be under constant stress of attack. This makes guerilla actions against the big guys more viable.

Sovereignty Costs
Reduce the base cost of sovereignty from 84M ISK per pay period to 10M ISK. This allows little guys to toy with sovereignty.

Increase the cost of jump bridge upgrades (Advanced Logistics Network) by 50% (i.e., make force projection more expensive.)
Qolde
Comms Black
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2013-09-03 22:13:53 UTC
sovereignty communications structure : for every 100 members more than 1000, an alliance must place antennae to Maintain standings, sovereignty and number of corps in alliance. they are hackable for access to alliance mail, corporation fitting, and spying on chat. they are attackable for the removal of such luxuries. anchorable in hisec but prevents sov.

If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them.

Seraph Castillon
Death Metal Frogs
Ribbit.
#3 - 2013-09-04 00:02:43 UTC
Qolde wrote:
for every 100 members more than 1000


So they'll just end up artificially splitting their alliance into multiple alliances, which are actually still the same alliance.

@OP you want to make it easier on the little guy, but you're going to make them pay 100mil every time someone reinforces a system of theirs. Not to mention force them to put a JF on field that would be an easy target.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#4 - 2013-09-04 01:26:01 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Scale Sov Structure EHP with "activity" in system. If alliance hasn't done anything in that system for the past month, then it should be trivially easy to take down their sov structures. If the alliance lives in the system, then the EHP of the structures should be correspondingly large.

"activity" can be defined by the owners of the systems do - Productive POS structures, Stations, POCOs, Anomolies completed, Rats destroyed, some combination of all of them, whatever the 0.0 community thinks is a reasonable measure of guys risking their assets in space.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-09-04 01:28:12 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Scale Sov Structure EHP with "activity" in system. If alliance hasn't done anything in that system for the past month, then it should be trivially easy to take down their sov structures. If the alliance lives in the system, then the EHP of the structures should be correspondingly large.
I like that. +1.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#6 - 2013-09-04 02:03:48 UTC
I-hubs
Agreed, there's something silly about having to slowboat freighters through nullsec. This would certainly make sovereignty more accessible to smaller alliances, especially if the hub can be fit inside a T1 fit Orca (ie; target volume of <75K m3).

Contestation
This idea has some merit...but as pointed out, larger groups will be able to bankrupt smaller groups with the 100M fuel every RF cycle. You're relatively new to null and probably haven't thought through the ramifications of what is essentially stront-fiddling a tower, but on a larger scale. Lowsec doesnt have the whole use it or lose it dynamic of null or w-space.

My experience is that RF timers trigger PVP, and demand a response. As a small entity you can't ignore a RF timer fishing expedition as a feint, hoax or just a glove thrown on the floor to troll PVP. Making it cost 50-100M ISK to protect it means that your foes know you'll be investing that ISK because you can't afford to show weakness, or lose one of your few systems, or you'll failcascade or have your territory reduced. So you are forced to commit not only ISK, but forces, to defend.

Conversely a large alliance can afford to let the RF timer slide and respond to the final timer. If they lose, they can recapture again in a trice against smaller foes. If it was just a fishing expedition, no worries. They can pick and choose what to stront up, when to do it, and not be threatened entirely.

The current mechanic serves to protect the small as well as the big. The small guys, with their smaller bankroll, aren't penalised every time someone fishes for fights. Boring? Yes. Slow? Yes. But it's advantageous to have 48 hours to evac, repack and flog your booty, versus 24 because your sole alliance XO is away on holiday and didn't pay the stront bill when NC or CFC came past to troll you.

SBU's
Agreed, this is just boring "gameplay". The idea behind this mechanic is to give the defender warning of an upcoming push, so the defender can marshal their forces. The reality is...it just projects intentions hours or days out and leads to batphoning, which encourages gigantic meta-coalitions.


Hitpoints

Again, the intention in the current mechanic is to prevent overly fluid sovereignty mechanics by giving the sov structures hitpoints that deter casual or flippant attacks. The result is of course that this leads to katamari style responses by pilots who need to form larger blobs or larger ships to turn a mind-numbingly boring process into something close approaching just stupid.

Changing things too much will, however, remove the incentive to hold space and invest in it. If your rewards (i-hub upgrades, bling, mining) are easily wiped out then you'll go back to POS camping and itinerant vagrancy as used to be the case. It will result in smaller coalitions and smaller blobs, but not via making smaller alliances able to hold sov, but via making sov pointless to hold on a cost/benefit and effort/reward basis.

Force projection
There's been a bunch of whine poasts over the years about the unfairness of titan bridging, or JB networks. JB networks can be made more vulnerable by increasing the resources used by the bridges themselves (to trim down on defence resources of the host POS) and more costly by adjusting the fuel cost. Already fuelling a bridge network is a decent ask if you habitually use them to move around; same with Titans to move fleets.

I'm on the fence. Force projection, again, reduces tedium and (to some extent) risk while moving a fleet from A to B. Sure, properly set up JB networks can allow fleets to move whole regions in moments, which allows synergies with larger territory.

Making it more expensive via changes to upgrade requirements in sov infrastructure doesn't help anyone except the big boys, who can afford and grind up the effort to install JB's. Adjusting cost of use is more fair; JB's can be onlined or offlined as needed by people who don't want to pay so ratters can jump back and forth infinite times, or hauler toons lugging Itty's worth of ore. For people addicted to JB's, higher costs will just mean there's a brake put on their war machine when they move hundred man fleets back and forth to defend or attack.



Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#7 - 2013-09-04 15:05:01 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Scale Sov Structure EHP with "activity" in system. If alliance hasn't done anything in that system for the past month, then it should be trivially easy to take down their sov structures. If the alliance lives in the system, then the EHP of the structures should be correspondingly large.

"activity" can be defined by the owners of the systems do - Productive POS structures, Stations, POCOs, Anomolies completed, Rats destroyed, some combination of all of them, whatever the 0.0 community thinks is a reasonable measure of guys risking their assets in space.



Keeping sov by carebearing. Sounds like faction war.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-09-04 15:52:32 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Keeping sov by carebearing. Sounds like faction war.


It's more like requiring nullsec alliances to actually utilize the space they claim, rather than leave huge swaths of it unused and fallow. Back in the day there'd be huge stretches of systems claimed by big alliances with not a soul in sight, that we claimed more for bragging rights and to keep anyone else from claiming them. Actually forcing people to live and work in the space they claim would make nullsec more populated, which makes things like nullsec industry more viable, and makes it a more interesting place to live.

Not that I agree with everything he says, but it might help Gevlon's argument that people claim nullsec and work in high sec if alliance members had to work in nullsec to make it worth claiming.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#9 - 2013-09-04 16:09:49 UTC
Actually, the best way to "aid" the little guy, is to make unused space more vulnerable to attack.

Have a dynamic number of RF timers on a system based on the System's Sov Index. Sov Index == Number of RF timers the IHUB gets. Have the Sov Index be a number 0-5, based on in-system activity, where unused systems will have no RF timers, enabling anyone to take it at anytime.

Big empires can still stomp out little guys, but if they don't utilize the system, little guys can take it right back.

An imperfect suggestion for Sov Index: Have it be the average of the Military and Industrial Indexes, rounded down. This is imperfect, because you can "utilize" a system without ratting and mining in it, and the Sov index should include MFG activity, and maybe even PvP activity.


Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#10 - 2013-09-04 16:45:30 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Keeping sov by carebearing. Sounds like faction war.


It's more like requiring nullsec alliances to actually utilize the space they claim, rather than leave huge swaths of it unused and fallow. Back in the day there'd be huge stretches of systems claimed by big alliances with not a soul in sight, that we claimed more for bragging rights and to keep anyone else from claiming them. Actually forcing people to live and work in the space they claim would make nullsec more populated, which makes things like nullsec industry more viable, and makes it a more interesting place to live.

Not that I agree with everything he says, but it might help Gevlon's argument that people claim nullsec and work in high sec if alliance members had to work in nullsec to make it worth claiming.


I agree forcing people to care bear in null space will mean they will carebear in null space. Just like forcing people to carebear in fw lead to lots of carebearing in fw.

I just don't like having sov directly decided by carebearing. I realize I am in the minority since that is the new way for eve, but I am not a fan.

I think it should be easier for smaller pvp alliances to inflict damage on larger alliances. This would give them clout. It would mean larger alliances would need to appease them - perhaps by giving them some space. IMO that is a better dynamic than larger alliances wanting to recruit carebears. Its just a matter of whether you want the carebear alliances to have the power or the pvp alliances. I really don't care if they are big or small.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#11 - 2013-09-04 17:08:49 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Scale Sov Structure EHP with "activity" in system. If alliance hasn't done anything in that system for the past month, then it should be trivially easy to take down their sov structures. If the alliance lives in the system, then the EHP of the structures should be correspondingly large.

"activity" can be defined by the owners of the systems do - Productive POS structures, Stations, POCOs, Anomolies completed, Rats destroyed, some combination of all of them, whatever the 0.0 community thinks is a reasonable measure of guys risking their assets in space.

Sounds like faction war.

Not really. Important parts highlighted.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#12 - 2013-09-04 17:21:35 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
repeat
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#13 - 2013-09-04 17:40:55 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Keeping sov by carebearing. Sounds like faction war.


It's more like requiring nullsec alliances to actually utilize the space they claim, rather than leave huge swaths of it unused and fallow. Back in the day there'd be huge stretches of systems claimed by big alliances with not a soul in sight, that we claimed more for bragging rights and to keep anyone else from claiming them. Actually forcing people to live and work in the space they claim would make nullsec more populated, which makes things like nullsec industry more viable, and makes it a more interesting place to live.

Not that I agree with everything he says, but it might help Gevlon's argument that people claim nullsec and work in high sec if alliance members had to work in nullsec to make it worth claiming.


I agree forcing people to care bear in null space will mean they will carebear in null space. Just like forcing people to carebear in fw lead to lots of carebearing in fw.

I just don't like having sov directly decided by carebearing. I realize I am in the minority since that is the new way for eve, but I am not a fan.

I think it should be easier for smaller pvp alliances to inflict damage on larger alliances. This would give them clout. It would mean larger alliances would need to appease them - perhaps by giving them some space. IMO that is a better dynamic than larger alliances wanting to recruit carebears. Its just a matter of whether you want the carebear alliances to have the power or the pvp alliances. I really don't care if they are big or small.


It is not about carebearing, its about creating vulnerabilities.

To give an example: Agony (~200ish members) once took some Tech Moons from Northern Coallition, when they were a power to be reckoned with. We RF'd their towers, examined their response (500 vs our 30). Repeated, repeated, and eventually they didn't respond and we got the tower. But try to take a system that way, and your in major trouble because the opponent gets 3x RF timers, and if they destroy some SBU's it resets the whole cycle.

The number of hit points structures get is intimidating, but not really the issue. The issue is the number of RF chances they get to respond. By making this dependent on system activity, you dramatically change the value of "holding space". Fighting a major Sov war, and one side throws in the towel... as they move out, their activity drops, and their systems become easier to claim. Claim them all, but if you don't utilize them, someone else may take them. Underutilized space not only costs upkeep, but can be easily lost. Heavily Utilized space becomes more secure. This is win-win, as long as we can define "system activity" in a reasonable manner.

The obvious means to define System activity are Shooting Rats, Harvesting Resources, and POS S&I activites, because these involve putting players and their assets in space, vulnerable to attack. Other options may include player ships destroy, market activity, even jumps per day, although many of these are exploitable and need thought. The truth is, the anything that involves having players and/or their assets in space, vulnerable to attack, should be encouraged.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-09-04 17:55:21 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Keeping sov by carebearing. Sounds like faction war.


It's more like requiring nullsec alliances to actually utilize the space they claim, rather than leave huge swaths of it unused and fallow. Back in the day there'd be huge stretches of systems claimed by big alliances with not a soul in sight, that we claimed more for bragging rights and to keep anyone else from claiming them. Actually forcing people to live and work in the space they claim would make nullsec more populated, which makes things like nullsec industry more viable, and makes it a more interesting place to live.

Not that I agree with everything he says, but it might help Gevlon's argument that people claim nullsec and work in high sec if alliance members had to work in nullsec to make it worth claiming.


I just don't like having sov directly decided by carebearing. I realize I am in the minority since that is the new way for eve, but I am not a fan.

I think it should be easier for smaller pvp alliances to inflict damage on larger alliances. This would give them clout. It would mean larger alliances would need to appease them - perhaps by giving them some space. IMO that is a better dynamic than larger alliances wanting to recruit carebears. Its just a matter of whether you want the carebear alliances to have the power or the pvp alliances. I really don't care if they are big or small.


It is not about carebearing, its about creating vulnerabilities.

The number of hit points structures get is intimidating, but not really the issue. The issue is the number of RF chances they get to respond. By making this dependent on system activity, you dramatically change the value of "holding space". Fighting a major Sov war, and one side throws in the towel... as they move out, their activity drops, and their systems become easier to claim. Claim them all, but if you don't utilize them, someone else may take them. Underutilized space not only costs upkeep, but can be easily lost. Heavily Utilized space becomes more secure. This is win-win, as long as we can define "system activity" in a reasonable manner.

The obvious means to define System activity are Shooting Rats, Harvesting Resources, and POS S&I activites, because these involve putting players and their assets in space, vulnerable to attack. Other options may include player ships destroy, market activity, even jumps per day, although many of these are exploitable and need thought. The truth is, the anything that involves having players and/or their assets in space, vulnerable to attack, should be encouraged.


This. I would love to see a system wherein alliances that encourage the active, productive use of their space are rewarded by making that space harder to take. Invest in your territory by making it productive, be rewarded. Don't, and it becomes easier to lose. This would further the "farms and fields" kind of model that Ripard and Mabrick and Gevlon and others have talked about.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#15 - 2013-09-04 22:07:06 UTC
There are at least 2 different kinds of pvp players in eve. There are those who eve is their life and then there are those who would like to sign in for a few hours a week and fight in a war with some sort of backstory but nothing too serious.

FW sov should have been the easy choice the latter group and null sec sov for the former. Unfortunately fw sov failed hard. So now we sort of want to have null sec sov fill that gap for the latter group. In the end neither will be done well.

FW sov should be the answer for the latter type of pvper. Until that happens they will keep trying to shoehorn null sec into that role.


Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Keeping sov by carebearing. Sounds like faction war.


It's more like requiring nullsec alliances to actually utilize the space they claim, rather than leave huge swaths of it unused and fallow. Back in the day there'd be huge stretches of systems claimed by big alliances with not a soul in sight, that we claimed more for bragging rights and to keep anyone else from claiming them. Actually forcing people to live and work in the space they claim would make nullsec more populated, which makes things like nullsec industry more viable, and makes it a more interesting place to live.

Not that I agree with everything he says, but it might help Gevlon's argument that people claim nullsec and work in high sec if alliance members had to work in nullsec to make it worth claiming.


I agree forcing people to care bear in null space will mean they will carebear in null space. Just like forcing people to carebear in fw lead to lots of carebearing in fw.

I just don't like having sov directly decided by carebearing. I realize I am in the minority since that is the new way for eve, but I am not a fan.

I think it should be easier for smaller pvp alliances to inflict damage on larger alliances. This would give them clout. It would mean larger alliances would need to appease them - perhaps by giving them some space. IMO that is a better dynamic than larger alliances wanting to recruit carebears. Its just a matter of whether you want the carebear alliances to have the power or the pvp alliances. I really don't care if they are big or small.


It is not about carebearing, its about creating vulnerabilities.

To give an example: Agony (~200ish members) once took some Tech Moons from Northern Coallition, when they were a power to be reckoned with. We RF'd their towers, examined their response (500 vs our 30). Repeated, repeated, and eventually they didn't respond and we got the tower. But try to take a system that way, and your in major trouble because the opponent gets 3x RF timers, and if they destroy some SBU's it resets the whole cycle.

The number of hit points structures get is intimidating, but not really the issue. The issue is the number of RF chances they get to respond.


I agree. The timers are the problem. If they ratted allot should the moons be harder to take as well?

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


By making this dependent on system activity, you dramatically change the value of "holding space". Fighting a major Sov war, and one side throws in the towel... as they move out, their activity drops, and their systems become easier to claim. Claim them all, but if you don't utilize them, someone else may take them. Underutilized space not only costs upkeep, but can be easily lost. Heavily Utilized space becomes more secure. This is win-win, as long as we can define "system activity" in a reasonable manner.

The obvious means to define System activity are Shooting Rats, Harvesting Resources, and POS S&I activites, because these involve putting players and their assets in space, vulnerable to attack. Other options may include player ships destroy, market activity, even jumps per day, although many of these are exploitable and need thought. The truth is, the anything that involves having players and/or their assets in space, vulnerable to attack, should be encouraged. .


Are the carebears that will make these systems less vulnerable to attack likely to side with large coalitions or small pvp groups?

It really doesn't make the large goups vulnerable. CFC already has large carebear alliances under their wing to help make their systems less vulnerable. The small pvp alliances don't.

Make sov dependent on how well defended a system is? Yes.
Make sov dependent on how many rats are shot? Bad idea.

There are 2 completely different spectrums here.

One spectrum is whether sov should be pvp or pve centered. The farms and fields make it more pve centered.

The other spectrum is whether sov null sec should be attack-able by smaller groups. Making sov more pve focused does not really help that at all. Shorter timers can help.


I agree with allot of what your saying. But there are only 2 sov mechanics in the game. They don't need to both be based on who can carebear the most.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815