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The Null Sec Myth

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Dradius Calvantia
Lip Shords
#21 - 2011-11-14 05:28:41 UTC
You know, I am always amused at how the dirty, moralless, blood thirsty, null secers are always the one who post with constructive, helpful advice and generally add to the discussion in a meaningful way.

While on the other hand, people like Elrich and Commizar (who seem to have a problem with null sec and all those who have ever lived there) resort to ad hominem attacks, unsupported claims, and general tin foil hattery.

(This is the extent of the attention either of you are going to get from me in this thread.)
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#22 - 2011-11-14 05:44:53 UTC
Dradius Calvantia wrote:
You know, I am always amused at how the dirty, moralless, blood thirsty, null secers are always the one who post with constructive, helpful advice and generally add to the discussion in a meaningful way.

While on the other hand, people like Elrich and Commizar (who seem to have a problem with null sec and all those who have ever lived there) resort to ad hominem attacks, unsupported claims, and general tin foil hattery.

(This is the extent of the attention either of you are going to get from me in this thread.)

Who said I have a problem with nullsec players? I have problems with walls. I don't believe anyone in EVE should have an "I win" button, and warp bubbles are exactly that: an "I win" button for gate campers. If nullsec was really that cool of a place, would the community still need convincing after 7 years? If it were as simple as you say it is, would you have posters who constantly come to the forums to try to understand the "simple basic game mechanics"? Fun is what players are looking for in any sec area of EVE. Nullsec just tends not to be as much fun as other parts.
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-11-14 05:45:20 UTC
Please Sticky.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2011-11-14 05:47:09 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Dradius Calvantia wrote:
You know, I am always amused at how the dirty, moralless, blood thirsty, null secers are always the one who post with constructive, helpful advice and generally add to the discussion in a meaningful way.

While on the other hand, people like Elrich and Commizar (who seem to have a problem with null sec and all those who have ever lived there) resort to ad hominem attacks, unsupported claims, and general tin foil hattery.

(This is the extent of the attention either of you are going to get from me in this thread.)

Who said I have a problem with nullsec players? I have problems with walls. I don't believe anyone in EVE should have an "I win" button, and warp bubbles are exactly that: an "I win" button for gate campers. If nullsec was really that cool of a place, would the community still need convincing after 7 years? If it were as simple as you say it is, would you have posters who constantly come to the forums to try to understand the "simple basic game mechanics"? Fun is what players are looking for in any sec area of EVE. Nullsec just tends not to be as much fun as other parts.



You are so unbelievably wrong it's ridiculous.

There are so many ways around or through bubbles. It just takes practice and losing a couple ships to learn.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#25 - 2011-11-14 05:51:59 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Dradius Calvantia wrote:
You know, I am always amused at how the dirty, moralless, blood thirsty, null secers are always the one who post with constructive, helpful advice and generally add to the discussion in a meaningful way.

While on the other hand, people like Elrich and Commizar (who seem to have a problem with null sec and all those who have ever lived there) resort to ad hominem attacks, unsupported claims, and general tin foil hattery.

(This is the extent of the attention either of you are going to get from me in this thread.)

Who said I have a problem with nullsec players? I have problems with walls. I don't believe anyone in EVE should have an "I win" button, and warp bubbles are exactly that: an "I win" button for gate campers. If nullsec was really that cool of a place, would the community still need convincing after 7 years? If it were as simple as you say it is, would you have posters who constantly come to the forums to try to understand the "simple basic game mechanics"? Fun is what players are looking for in any sec area of EVE. Nullsec just tends not to be as much fun as other parts.


For some, that may be true. For tens of thousands of other players, this is not the case.

People that have never been outside of High Sec should not take your word for it, nor mine for that matter. A person really can't make that determination until they have experienced it for themselves.

The point is, it's not that difficult for them to give it a try. Then they can make an informed decision.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#26 - 2011-11-14 05:53:36 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Dradius Calvantia wrote:
You know, I am always amused at how the dirty, moralless, blood thirsty, null secers are always the one who post with constructive, helpful advice and generally add to the discussion in a meaningful way.

While on the other hand, people like Elrich and Commizar (who seem to have a problem with null sec and all those who have ever lived there) resort to ad hominem attacks, unsupported claims, and general tin foil hattery.

(This is the extent of the attention either of you are going to get from me in this thread.)

Who said I have a problem with nullsec players? I have problems with walls. I don't believe anyone in EVE should have an "I win" button, and warp bubbles are exactly that: an "I win" button for gate campers. If nullsec was really that cool of a place, would the community still need convincing after 7 years? If it were as simple as you say it is, would you have posters who constantly come to the forums to try to understand the "simple basic game mechanics"? Fun is what players are looking for in any sec area of EVE. Nullsec just tends not to be as much fun as other parts.



You are so unbelievably wrong it's ridiculous.

There are so many ways around or through bubbles. It just takes practice and losing a couple ships to learn.


Orly? how many ships? A player earlier described them as a means to keep un wanted players out of your territory. I think he is right, and warp bubbles do a really good job of that. I don't know maybe you worship at the hallowed halls of warp bubbles or something. I'd hate to see how you would have played EVE seven years ago.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#27 - 2011-11-14 06:04:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Dradius Calvantia wrote:
You know, I am always amused at how the dirty, moralless, blood thirsty, null secers are always the one who post with constructive, helpful advice and generally add to the discussion in a meaningful way.

While on the other hand, people like Elrich and Commizar (who seem to have a problem with null sec and all those who have ever lived there) resort to ad hominem attacks, unsupported claims, and general tin foil hattery.

(This is the extent of the attention either of you are going to get from me in this thread.)

Who said I have a problem with nullsec players? I have problems with walls. I don't believe anyone in EVE should have an "I win" button, and warp bubbles are exactly that: an "I win" button for gate campers. If nullsec was really that cool of a place, would the community still need convincing after 7 years? If it were as simple as you say it is, would you have posters who constantly come to the forums to try to understand the "simple basic game mechanics"? Fun is what players are looking for in any sec area of EVE. Nullsec just tends not to be as much fun as other parts.



You are so unbelievably wrong it's ridiculous.

There are so many ways around or through bubbles. It just takes practice and losing a couple ships to learn.


Orly? how many ships? A player earlier described them as a means to keep un wanted players out of your territory. I think he is right, and warp bubbles do a really good job of that. I don't know maybe you worship at the hallowed halls of warp bubbles or something. I'd hate to see how you would have played EVE seven years ago.


Bubbles work quite nicely for intercepting most vessels. However any members of the covert ops class (including covert transports), most interceptors, and properly set up T3 cruisers have an excellent chance of getting past them in the hands of an experienced pilot.

If you are looking to bring heavier combat vessels through, you need to bring enough support to punch a hole and a good scout to precede you.

Both of these scenarios can be a lot of fun for most people. I'm sorry you don't find them to your taste, but tens of thousands of people do.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#28 - 2011-11-14 06:10:11 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Well look out nullsec for the flood of Empire folk embarking on their voyages.
1. Thats right only the choke points are camped.
2. 20-30 man gangs aren't blobs at all.
3. There are a bunch of gankers out there but they will only get you if you let'em.
4. Sure join a corp of fellow players who are rarely on, they will have your back... when they are online at least.
5.Lastly don't worry at all about skill points just learn game mechanics because in a blob you will likely be tackling anyways.

Your post fails because you have validated all the reasons why empire folks don't go to nullsec. BTW there are plenty of empire players with goals. Living in nullsec is merely there to say you did it. Once you have lived there for a month you realize that you could be having more fun in an empire corp, PVPing in low sec and with war targets. Nullsec is just tedious and thats why some folks don't go there.



1: No one ever said that. It was pointed out that most gate camps outside of choke points are of a temporary, spontaneous nature.

2: 20 - 30 man gangs aren't blobs, not even in high sec.

3: Gankers are dangerous... if you don't know how to deal with them.

4: Null sec players are online no more, and no less, than players in an Empire based corp. However, when they are on they tend to devote more time to team work than many (though not all) high sec corps.

5: Tackling is one of the most important roles in the game, and yes it can be done (and done well) by a relatively inexperienced player. So can scouting, being part of a roaming frigate or cruiser gang, or being part of a corps industrial back bone.

You seem to like this word tedious, you use it often. Null sec is no more, or less, tedious than the rest of EVE... in other words it's only tedious if you make it so. Perhaps you should be looking at the choices you make in your style of game play, rather than laying the blame on the game mechanics.

You must not be well or something. The fact that a choke point is bubbled 24/7 means you wont be getting in unless you bring a fleet or you can work some MWD miracles, or you have a covert ops, or you are blue. As far as blobs are concerned you need to read this: http://massively.joystiq.com/2008/05/26/eve-evolved-to-blob-or-not-to-blob/. Some of those same nullsec devotees are playing as alts in Empire because null is so tedious. If I have to make a bunch of bookmarks just to get through a valueless system, then that is more tedious than Empire. Why do I use the word tedious? Because the shoe fits. Look up the word, and then you can thank me for expanding you vocabulary.
Elyssa MacLeod
Doomheim
#29 - 2011-11-14 06:12:31 UTC
The null sec myth is that you can conquer space in it and start your own empire

(and no, renting doesnt count)

GM Homonoia: Suicide ganks are a valid and viable tactic in EVE.

Where is your God now carebear?
Dradius Calvantia
Lip Shords
#30 - 2011-11-14 06:15:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Dradius Calvantia
Ranger 1 wrote:

Bubbles work quite nicely for intercepting most vessels. However any members of the covert ops class (including covert transports), most interceptors, and properly set up T3 cruisers have an excellent chance of getting past them in the hands of an experienced pilot.

If you are looking to bring heavier combat vessels through, you need to bring enough support to punch a hole and a good scout to precede you.

Both of these scenarios can be a lot of fun for most people. I'm sorry you don't find them to your taste, but tens of thousands of people do.


In addition to the ships that can make it past nearly any gate camp that you listed above; Nearly anything with an MWD and a cloak that is smaller/faster than a BS can at least make it back to the gate and escape the way they came. Any MWD frigate, and a lot of cruisers can do the same with out the cloak.

Also: Bubbles don't kill people, the guys with really big guns sitting on the gate with them do =P

Edit: This is of course subject to certain factors. If the enemy is willing to comp tons of RSB and web bonused ships, it is possible to stop anything. As has been pointed out though, dedicated camps are an extremely rare thing in Null Sec; and when they do exist, they light up the map for anyone to see.
Myz Toyou
Nekkid Inc.
#31 - 2011-11-14 06:16:49 UTC
The real game is in W-Space.

0.0 is for dramaqueens and Empire for Justin Bieber fanboys.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#32 - 2011-11-14 06:38:02 UTC
Dradius Calvantia wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Bubbles work quite nicely for intercepting most vessels. However any members of the covert ops class (including covert transports), most interceptors, and properly set up T3 cruisers have an excellent chance of getting past them in the hands of an experienced pilot.

If you are looking to bring heavier combat vessels through, you need to bring enough support to punch a hole and a good scout to precede you.

Both of these scenarios can be a lot of fun for most people. I'm sorry you don't find them to your taste, but tens of thousands of people do.


In addition to the ships that can make it past nearly any gate camp that you listed above; Nearly anything with an MWD and a cloak that is smaller/faster than a BS can at least make it back to the gate and escape the way they came. Any MWD frigate, and a lot of cruisers can do the same with out the cloak.

Also: Bubbles don't kill people, the guys with really big guns sitting on the gate with them do =P

Edit: This is of course subject to certain factors. If the enemy is willing to comp tons of RSB and web bonused ships, it is possible to stop anything. As has been pointed out though, dedicated camps are an extremely rare thing in Null Sec; and when they do exist, they light up the map for anyone to see.
So what is your point, that players once they see the choke point camp should just high tail it back to the gate? I guess they did not get to experience nullsec... Which is the point of why some players don't go to null... Its camped out, with warp bubbles.
Dradius Calvantia
Lip Shords
#33 - 2011-11-14 06:50:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dradius Calvantia
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
So what is your point, that players once they see the choke point camp should just high tail it back to the gate? I guess they did not get to experience nullsec... Which is the point of why some players don't go to null... Its camped out, with warp bubbles.


I am going to respond to this. Even though you are just trolling, there is a semi legitimate question in there somewhere if you look hard enough which others might want the answer to.

A. You should never jump into a permanent camp to begin with. You do not even need to go anywhere near the system that is camped to know that it is there and avoid it. Learn to use the free intel that the map statistics give you.

B. If some entity is dedicating the man hours to camp some gate for what ever reason, then guess what, you are not getting thought that gate. Go through a different one. The gates that get camped are usually the ones along the fastest route from highly populated areas of high sec to a particular region of low or nul.

If the extent of the thought you put into getting into null is "set destination" then yes camps are a problem.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#34 - 2011-11-14 07:13:20 UTC
Dradius Calvantia wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
So what is your point, that players once they see the choke point camp should just high tail it back to the gate? I guess they did not get to experience nullsec... Which is the point of why some players don't go to null... Its camped out, with warp bubbles.


I am going to respond to this. Even though you are just trolling, there is a semi legitimate question in there somewhere if you look hard enough which others might want the answer to.

A. You should never jump into a permanent camp to begin with. You do not even need to go anywhere near the system that is camped to know that it is there and avoid it. Learn to use the free intel that the map statistics give you.

B. If some entity is dedicating the man hours to camp some gate for what ever reason, then guess what, you are not getting thought that gate. Go through a different one. The gates that get camped are usually the ones along the fastest route from highly populated areas of high sec to a particular region of low or nul.

If the extent of the thought you put into getting into null is "set destination" then yes camps are a problem.

If you think that will convince players to head out to null, keep dreaming. All nullsec is choked up. All nullsec entry points are bubble camped unless you are going through a worm hole. And you don't believe players should be able to effectively counter warp bubbles? why not? Are you a gate camper?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#35 - 2011-11-14 07:20:17 UTC
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Just curious why you people seem so desperate to convince highsec dwellers to risk Zero?


I'm equally curious why people like you seem so desperate to convince highsec dwellers not to risk Zero.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#36 - 2011-11-14 07:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
All nullsec is choked up.

No, it isnt actually.


Elrich Kouvo wrote:
All nullsec entry points are bubble camped unless you are going through a worm hole.

No, they arent actually


Elrich Kouvo wrote:
And you don't believe players should be able to effectively counter warp bubbles?

There are ways to negate warp bubbles which can be used by anyone. Dont warp gate to gate. Use celestials to scan gates when there are people in system. If there is no celestials, dump cap and warp short. If you go through a gate that is bubbled, wait out your session timer, mwd back and jump back trough, wait or find another route - or if you have a covopscloak fitted - allign out of bubble, mwd, cloak and warp away as soon as you are clear. In a cloaky T3 with interdiction nullifier you can just forget about bubbles and warp gate to gate.


But yeah. Moving through null requires a pilot at the helm, not the autopilot. If that is what you want to do, then I cant help you.
Hero Tackler
Doomheim
#37 - 2011-11-14 07:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Hero Tackler
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Just curious why you people seem so desperate to convince highsec dwellers to risk Zero?
Really Dradius, you should be ashamed or just admit a lack of candor...

"1) It is impossible to move through null sec because every single gate is constantly camped."

True, but you will likely be BBQ if you aren't "blue".

"2) Null Sec PVP is nothing but blobs."

True, but you will likely be BBQ if you aren't "blue".

"3) Null Sec PVPers are just looking for ganks, not good fights."

True, but you will likely be BBQ if you aren't "blue".

"4) Living in Null Sec takes a huge amount of time and complete abandonment of real life."

True, but you will likely be BBQ if you aren't "blue".

"5) Living in Null Sec requires years of SP training time in order to accomplish anything."

True, but you will likely be BBQ if you aren't "blue".
__________

Then you conclude that :
" More than anything else, living in Null Sec requires that you are capable of setting goals for your self, and are willing to put in the effort required to reach them. (Note: Effort != Time) People who do not do well with out some sort of structure always guiding them in the one "correct" direction will not do well in Null."

which is a total "non sequitur" completely disconnected logically from your initial points.
Then you leave a video which may or may not be "posed" by actors.

You'll have to do much better than that to attract highsec dwellers.
Oh yes and did I remember to say that if you go to zero and you are not "blue" you will likely be BBQ?


QFT for blue sec abloo bloo

More meta than you
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#38 - 2011-11-14 07:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Oh yes and did I remember to say that if you go to zero and you are not "blue" you will likely be BBQ?


Hero Tackler wrote:
QFT for blue sec abloo bloo



I dunno. Most of my years in 0.0 I lived perfectly happy in a 200 man corporation woth NO BLUES whatsoever.

I find most of the reasons why people dont go to nullsec to be excuses. If you dont want to go, then dont. If you dont want to risk anything, then dont. But dont make up fake reasons why traveling or living in null outside til powerblocks is impossible. Because evidence speaks against you, every single day.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#39 - 2011-11-14 07:46:09 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
All nullsec is choked up.

No, it isnt actually.


Elrich Kouvo wrote:
All nullsec entry points are bubble camped unless you are going through a worm hole.

No, they arent actually


Elrich Kouvo wrote:
And you don't believe players should be able to effectively counter warp bubbles?

There are ways to negate warp bubbles which can be used by anyone. Dont warp gate to gate. Use celestials to scan gates when there are people in system. If there is no celestials, dump cap and warp short. If you go through a gate that is bubbled, wait out your session timer, mwd back and jump back trough, wait or find another route - or if you have a covopscloak fitted - allign out of bubble, mwd, cloak and warp away as soon as you are clear. In a cloaky T3 with interdiction nullifier you can just forget about bubbles and warp gate to gate.


But yeah. Moving through null requires a pilot at the helm, not the autopilot. If that is what you want to do, then I cant help you.

You know you are right. I just warped through a gate with cloaky fitted whatever I was flying, and I warped to a planet and then I warped through to the gate. no one ever decloaked me or anything. I mean I just trespassed all over that alliances space, but then I realized that there was no fun to be had. My cloaky ship was a poor isk generator, and I was constantly watching local. After ducking blob after blob using my game mechanics, I decided to return to Empire. There I could actually blow something up. I did not have to hide and dodge as much. I was able to turn a profit in seconds. After a while I forgot completely why I went to nullsec. Can someone remind me?
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#40 - 2011-11-14 07:51:23 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
[You know you are right. I just warped through a gate with cloaky fitted whatever I was flying, and I warped to a planet and then I warped through to the gate. no one ever decloaked me or anything. I mean I just trespassed all over that alliances space, but then I realized that there was no fun to be had. My cloaky ship was a poor isk generator, and I was constantly watching local. After ducking blob after blob using my game mechanics, I decided to return to Empire. There I could actually blow something up. I did not have to hide and dodge as much. I was able to turn a profit in seconds. After a while I forgot completely why I went to nullsec. Can someone remind me?


I dunno? You missed farming level 4s too much maybe? I was patrolling in a Vaga in null the other day, and stumbled across a Dread Gurista battleship in a belt. So I killed it. It dropped a Crystal Omega implant. It roughly equals doing about 60 level 4s.

I guess i just want to say: To each his own.