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Amarr/Minmatar zone - whats up at the moment?

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Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#41 - 2013-09-03 13:18:48 UTC
Battletard and Eran Mintor poasting in the same thread. Have I fallen through a timewarp back to 2010 or something?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#42 - 2013-09-03 14:47:57 UTC
Pinky Feldman wrote:
A lot of Amarr oldschool FW moved onto other things or took a break from EVE after Arzad and the realization all the decent Minmatar PVP groups had already moved on themselves. Some like FHP might call it 'winning' but personally, I would say its just the realization that the people you fought so hard against for so long that you came to define each other, are no longer there.
I always wonder why you guys didn't try to take Huola? It would have either taken two days of "pve", or you would have had non-stop round the clock fights.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#43 - 2013-09-03 18:47:16 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Pinky Feldman wrote:
A lot of Amarr oldschool FW moved onto other things or took a break from EVE after Arzad and the realization all the decent Minmatar PVP groups had already moved on themselves. Some like FHP might call it 'winning' but personally, I would say its just the realization that the people you fought so hard against for so long that you came to define each other, are no longer there.
I always wonder why you guys didn't try to take Huola? It would have either taken two days of "pve", or you would have had non-stop round the clock fights.






Blue balling LNA is it's own kind of fun. Honestly - if you don't ever go to any of three particular systems you can pretend they don't exist.
Albercheck
Crossfire Incorporated
#44 - 2013-09-03 18:54:14 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Pinky Feldman wrote:
A lot of Amarr oldschool FW moved onto other things or took a break from EVE after Arzad and the realization all the decent Minmatar PVP groups had already moved on themselves. Some like FHP might call it 'winning' but personally, I would say its just the realization that the people you fought so hard against for so long that you came to define each other, are no longer there.
I always wonder why you guys didn't try to take Huola? It would have either taken two days of "pve", or you would have had non-stop round the clock fights.





There was a lot of internal discussion about this. Pinky can speak more to this, but the general consensus is that we ultimately left because there weren't any fights. If there were fights to be had, then it would have been awesome. However, it probably would have taken much longer than two days of orbiting beacons. Amarr would plex heavily in the US and EU timezones, but then RU timezones would negate much (if not all) of the contestation. That's why a lot of people were burned out after Arzad.

The question on everyone's mind, too, was "why?" Even if militias take entire warzones, medals aren't guaranteed. If we took Huola, the warzone would be reset and we wouldn't even be able to enjoy the plunders of T4/T5 very long either. The prospects of being in a huge 0.0 war and attaining our own sovereignty were much more appealing than plexing a system for days for no real reason other than ego rubs.
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#45 - 2013-09-03 20:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Feldman
X Gallentius wrote:
Pinky Feldman wrote:
A lot of Amarr oldschool FW moved onto other things or took a break from EVE after Arzad and the realization all the decent Minmatar PVP groups had already moved on themselves. Some like FHP might call it 'winning' but personally, I would say its just the realization that the people you fought so hard against for so long that you came to define each other, are no longer there.
I always wonder why you guys didn't try to take Huola? It would have either taken two days of "pve", or you would have had non-stop round the clock fights.


Honestly its a few reasons. First is how brutal the staging system grind is on FCs. The line member doesn't see this becuase they can log on and off at will, but for FCs and organizers, setting up the logistics for reships, staging towers, and then setting aside a weekend you can shift a 48 hour spread in addition to making sure the system hits the right percentage going into your strong time zone can be really taxing. I.Law a group that is the peanut butter to our jelly decided to enjoy their summer as well after the successful Arzad siege. <3 Almity.

Second, we didn't and have never had the proper EU TZ support to soften up Huola to make it 'easy'. When we took Dal the first time, we had RudeX's guys and assorted TMFED chipping away at it for a month in EU TZ until it went above the threshold we needed to take it going into the weekend with expected punting of our weak time zones. Arzad was the same way with Team FlyingPocket softening it up for the better part of a month.

Personally, I just have no vested interest in Huola. To me, the Kamela/Kourmonen/Huola cluster is a deadzone ball of negative Amarr FW attitudes. It's where all the groups that complained that Amarr FW was disorganized and didn't work together lived, when all the guys living in Egghelende were doing wonderful things working together. When they lost Kamela, the first and the second time, we brought down 50 man fleets to bolster their numbers for 24 hours until they took it back, despite all the people moving out telling us everything was lost. When Agony Unleashed kept getting their POSes reinforced in Huola, we showed up and put together 70 man fleets to defend them, this is back in Fall 2012 mind you, yet I still remember Kamela whiners complaining about how none of us worked together in militia chat while I was in a fleet that showed otherwise. These same groups begged us to take Huola twice, and both times we showed up, did all the logistics work of moving reships and setting up staging POSes, they would rather camp a gate than camp a plex. Screw that, lol.

The thing with Kamela/Kourm/Huola area regarding PVP is that LNA isn't the biggest group either, so I still think fights would have been limited. The beauty of that area is it's great to go if you just want casual PVP, or at least it was before Kamela was retaken and held this time. I don't doubt that the Minnies could have easily taken and held Kamela over the past few months, but I feel like they didn't just because they didn't want to evict their PVP neighbors, since groups living in both areas have never really been big on warzone control, which is kind of how I also felt about Huola. It's better that PVP only groups on both sides just live in their little bubble world of PVP. Finally, with no one wanting to move in to Huola if we did take it, we would just be burning ourselves out for the sake of some forum chestbeating and then it gets retaken a few days later.

To answer Albrecht, my focus has always been improving the strength of the group I fly with, whether that means finding a worthy target or objective or managing burnout. We did the pushes and the campaigns we did, to prove to the Amarr and ourselves, that we weren't as weak as we had been brainwashed into thinking during Inferno. None of these were done to force any Minmatar groups out of the warzone or make them 'ragequit', despite chestbeating bads saying otherwise. Dunking on weak targets or desolating your entire warzone doesn't fit this for me. A lot of the competent groups and even meatgrindingly bad Minmatar groups had left for your warzone or left FW altogether. Winmatar is so ridiculously bad at PVP, fighting them as a primary antagonist would have just left us worse off for when we actually did face a competent PVP group. We're talking worse than Predator Elite here. With it being clear that we had outgrown our warzone, not just in size but in organization, we would have only stagnated completing empty objectives that furthered burnout so we had to find a new challenge.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Courath Al'viendi
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2013-09-03 20:55:41 UTC
Please TL;DR that essay you just wrote.
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#47 - 2013-09-03 20:58:23 UTC
Courath Al'viendi wrote:
Please TL;DR that essay you just wrote.


tl;dr Winmatar too stronk. Fweddit sucks.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#48 - 2013-09-04 04:59:35 UTC
That Minmatar has what it has in the warzone I would put down solely to biohazard. The rest of the corps are solarsystem centric (TRIAD = Eszur), camp gates instead of plexes (LNA) or have their own defined little spheres of influence.

To see Amarr so far behind just shows that Minmatar has more fresh pilots and corps who are not burned by the whole Orbut Butans.

There's a lot of talk of Minmatar plexing alts flooding everything. The same is true of Caldari alts in Minnie space. The key is that people need to live in space and want to defend it. When I was doing this, we drew a line in the sand around Eszur and Sirekur and kept that decontested. We went down to Aset to help evict Nezmor and TFP and that was a great week of PVP right around Retribution dropping. But when we'd won, and U'K left, we let it flip back. There's only so much any one group can do on either side.

The difference is BIO right now seem to be getting out of their base (is it still Eszur?) and pushing the contestation. The Amarr are holding the systems they want to hold and collapsing back on themselves. It's going to even out eventually.

The difference between now and Northern Autumn 2012 is the lack of Fweddit. Fweddit added to Amarr's dispersed cloud of farmer alts, but importantly, they were there with a coherent and often unopposed blob. Which, reading Pinky's novel above, was part of the problem - Minmatar would get seriously demoralised and outnumbered and wouldn't welp ship after ship into the Fweddit blob (loki and legion links and excellent logi = fork that) to win via attrition, and wouldn't even try. Thus, no fights and Fweddit its own worst enemy.

To be fair, this was lack of secondary FCs within Fweddit who'd take out smaller fleets, and a personality cult of sorts where grunts would only follow certain FCs, who'd get burned. It was blob or getting picked off solo.

So. Amarr will come back when another fresh load of pilots in a reasonably well organised alliance, with dedicated FCs and dedicated logistical mules get their stuff together and join up. it won't be Something Awful Goons, it isn't going to be Redditors, so i guess it's going to be eHarmony members or the Pinterest gang.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#49 - 2013-09-04 06:43:27 UTC
eHarmony claims to mach up most compatable couples so I wouldn't be surprised if any FW corp put together by eHarmony reigned supreme.

And please don't tell me there's already an eHarmony corp/alliance...


Jokes aside, I love reading these posts by Pinky and others (am I confused; isn't Trinkets a PL alt? I've been away a long time so it could be a loss of memory due to podding and time...) as they show the depth of FW. It's not all about smacktalk or numbers, but people's goals and intent.

You can argue all day for occupancy showing who's 'better' but it doesnt change that some simply don't care beyond the PVP that's involved.

On a side note, Pinky doesn't like Pred? Oh lord...I'm not sure what to say to that... :$
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#50 - 2013-09-04 10:43:38 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
That Minmatar has what it has in the warzone I would put down solely to biohazard. The rest of the corps are solarsystem centric (TRIAD = Eszur), camp gates instead of plexes (LNA) or have their own defined little spheres of influence.

To see Amarr so far behind just shows that Minmatar has more fresh pilots and corps who are not burned by the whole Orbut Butans.



Saying that Minmatar has more fresh pilots and corps who aren't burned out by orbit Butans is just another way of saying that Minmatar have more people that join longterm for the PVE aspect of FW. The key difference between Amarr and Minmatar (Yes, I hate using blanket terms like that since anyone can join any side in FW and be lumped in) is the distinct lack of old guard that Amarr have. As a whole Minmatar seem to care more about warzone control due to the old guard anchoring the warzone, while the Amarr even at times and points where we could have pushed the entire warzone we always stopped short because being part of the new guard, we realized warzone control doesn't really matter to us since we joined for PVP.

I disagree that the Minmatar have what they have solely due to Biohazard. If anything, I would credit old guard groups like Triad and EM that actively care about the warzone enough that Biohazard has the starting point they do.

The eHarmony and Pinterest stuff made me lol hard. <3 Unfortunately, I don't think another fweddit will ever pop up again for Amarr FW. Fweddit was the magical result of a suddenly new "hot feature" in FW and massive 'stagnation' in other areas of the game.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#51 - 2013-09-04 10:50:05 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:

The difference between now and Northern Autumn 2012 is the lack of Fweddit. Fweddit added to Amarr's dispersed cloud of farmer alts, but importantly, they were there with a coherent and often unopposed blob. Which, reading Pinky's novel above, was part of the problem - Minmatar would get seriously demoralised and outnumbered and wouldn't welp ship after ship into the Fweddit blob (loki and legion links and excellent logi = fork that) to win via attrition, and wouldn't even try. Thus, no fights and Fweddit its own worst enemy.

To be fair, this was lack of secondary FCs within Fweddit who'd take out smaller fleets, and a personality cult of sorts where grunts would only follow certain FCs, who'd get burned. It was blob or getting picked off solo.


Fweddit stopped getting fights because of the Minmatar's inability to adapt to new meta and the continued mentality of "does dual prop 180 SFI win? if yes then engage, if no then stay docked." It had a lot less to do with numbers and boosts (you guys match us just well in this regard) than you think.

The moar you cry the less you pee
kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2013-09-04 11:59:20 UTC
Winmatar adapted. They fly Talwars now as well!
But yes, TRIAD has made the decision not to push any more groups out of their home system without reason. We were considering assaulting Aset or Siseide, but at this point I doubt it will get us anything in the way of good fights.
So I guess we will just reinforce shadow cartel pocos instead of orbiting buttons. We are looking for an alternative though. I hope it wont result in leaving FW all together but at the current rate it isnt unthinkable.
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-09-04 12:24:29 UTC
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
Winmatar adapted. They fly Talwars now as well!
But yes, TRIAD has made the decision not to push any more groups out of their home system without reason. We were considering assaulting Aset or Siseide, but at this point I doubt it will get us anything in the way of good fights.
So I guess we will just reinforce shadow cartel pocos instead of orbiting buttons. We are looking for an alternative though. I hope it wont result in leaving FW all together but at the current rate it isnt unthinkable.


lol, don't worry. Heretic Initiative is bringing the GF's by joining matar fw and deccing the majority of its corps. I am curious to see which, if any, of your corps have the balls to fight the rest of the militia(s) with us. At the moment however its just us makin the isk and shooting ALL the targets.

Seriously, after you have run out amarr from the warzone with just a few gangs why NOT shoot some of your own members in militia? Same atmosphere, all of the docking rights, all the isk and a TON more targets

I has all the eve inactivity
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#54 - 2013-09-04 12:31:20 UTC
Well, a few points.

Yes, I am Grazzt's alt. Confirmed!

Secondly, TRIAD is in it for the PVP and has a giant slab of pride in holding Eszur, no matter what, forever. They have hardly ever gone out of their way to offensive plex, and when under pressure, even Sirekur was on the chopping block. LNA and the 'old guard' have their own little hangouts, but I can confirm the only time LNA came down to Eszur way was for wardecs against other Minmatar corps.

Biohazard has been, imo, the main driving force. They've done this mostly in the past 6 months. Prior to that, they were doing their thing.

As you say, there was an hilarious doctrine shock with Retribution. I was in the first couple of AHAC fleets which Iron oxide and pals whelped into the Fweddit T1 cruiser fleet. Rather than adapt, they just table flipped, sulked like little girls and sat around stroking their e-peen furiously without realising T1 Logi cruisers had tipped the SFI Flabber meta over the cliff.

Its exactly this dyed in the wool mentality which prevented people from addressing the Fweddit blob, and to be honest, a large dose of relative demoralisation. You probably didn't see it, and experience it, but when your fleet rolled around it was like roaches when the lights came on. Excuses, excuses not to fleet up.

End result, boring and stagnant stuff i don't begrudge you for walking away from. Hell, I got sick of what FW turned into 3-6 months later which is stale, stagnant welping T1 frigs. I don't mind a bit of PVE grinding and plexing and fighting the good fight, but not when its just the same ten guys in my TZ all the time, or ISBOXer alts or farmer alts.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#55 - 2013-09-04 12:33:29 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Pinky Feldman wrote:
A lot of Amarr oldschool FW moved onto other things or took a break from EVE after Arzad and the realization all the decent Minmatar PVP groups had already moved on themselves. Some like FHP might call it 'winning' but personally, I would say its just the realization that the people you fought so hard against for so long that you came to define each other, are no longer there.
I always wonder why you guys didn't try to take Huola? It would have either taken two days of "pve", or you would have had non-stop round the clock fights.





Because the battle for arzad lasted a month and the "farm at night, get murdered every downtime" dynamic wouldn't have worked when the system has two timezones covered.

It would have been fun if fweddit had turned up en masse again to bail the rest of the amarr terribads out, I may have had to move some ships back into the warzone to farm kills but alas it wasn't to be.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#56 - 2013-09-04 15:39:58 UTC
Pinky Feldman wrote:
To answer Albrecht, my focus has always been improving the strength of the group I fly with, whether that means finding a worthy target or objective or managing burnout. We did the pushes and the campaigns we did, to prove to the Amarr and ourselves, that we weren't as weak as we had been brainwashed into thinking during Inferno. ...



What you say about the enemy just defensive plexing while you are gone is a very valid issue. Its one reason why I think giving lp for defensive plexing was a bad idea. People should need to fight to hold systems, not just wait until the enemy leaves and then dplex in an empty atron. And if they do that they certainly should not be rewarded with lp. Our csm disagreed however.

Perhaps something could be done to prevent this with how quickly plexes spawn. Perhaps plexes should not spawn as fast after a plex is closed by defender. That would mean if a defensive force comes in and can close even one plex when an enemy is actively attacking it they will buy some time. It will also prevent alts in empty atrons from quickly undoing the work of a pvp plexing fleet after it leaves.

People would complain that they get kicked out of thier stations due to being weak in one timezone. (Which again shows the error of having people be kicked out of stations anyway)

You guys really had no way to know most of the minmatar militia would not join to help out in Arzad so I don't blame you. But winning arzad like you did is not really much better than what amarr thought they could do during inferno. Arzad is great to win but it is no huola.

But really like you say whats the point? It's a broken system, so why spend energy on it. Get some random pvp at a gate instead.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#57 - 2013-09-04 16:42:44 UTC
I knew Iton Oxide. Iron Oxide was a friend of mine. And Biohazard is no Iron Oxide.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#58 - 2013-09-05 06:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Milton Middleson
Quote:
lol, don't worry. Heretic Initiative is bringing the GF's by joining matar fw and deccing the majority of its corps. I am curious to see which, if any, of your corps have the balls to fight the rest of the militia(s) with us. At the moment however its just us makin the isk and shooting ALL the targets.

Seriously, after you have run out amarr from the warzone with just a few gangs why NOT shoot some of your own members in militia? Same atmosphere, all of the docking rights, all the isk and a TON more targets


I'm glad to see Heretics are returning to their time-honored position of abusive elder sibling to the Minmatar militia family.
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#59 - 2013-09-05 08:11:25 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
Quote:
lol, don't worry. Heretic Initiative is bringing the GF's by joining matar fw and deccing the majority of its corps. I am curious to see which, if any, of your corps have the balls to fight the rest of the militia(s) with us. At the moment however its just us makin the isk and shooting ALL the targets.

Seriously, after you have run out amarr from the warzone with just a few gangs why NOT shoot some of your own members in militia? Same atmosphere, all of the docking rights, all the isk and a TON more targets


I'm glad to see Heretics are returning to their time-honored position of abusive elder sibling to the Minmatar militia family.


Actually I'm a little saddened, while banters has always been fun with Heretic I really liked that they were pirates and stayed that way even if they were far more aligned to minny than amarr.

Either way welcome to the party you were always inviting yourselves too anyway Heretics :D
Aslon Seridith
Biohazard.
#60 - 2013-09-06 11:31:19 UTC
Yea with Heretic joining the party, things got at least more funny yesterday.

They heard we were coming to take out their assets, resulted in one of their corps freaking out and unanchoring everything they had. We just waited and when their towers were unanchored , we dropped on em.

-> WTS Heretic Poses ~ 150m a pop.

Seriously, I do hope we can see some more pvp groups coming into fw. Summer is almost over, winter will tell.


㋡ it's ASLON SERIDTH? | Minmatar Most Loved #1 | Gave Amarr a Medal | Orchestrator of BurnHuola'14 |

Author of: How to win FW in 3 months | Nullsec Bittervet | www.winmatar.com