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New Ship Idea. Battleship Class Carrier
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Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#21 - 2013-09-03 23:11:19 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
from what I'm learning it seems like carriers have very limited use themselves. Outside of triage they dont really do very much. You'll probably find that fighters are a suboptimal thing to use for combat.


I use my carrier for a lot of things. Use your imagination.


Ok so looking beyond the logistics, they can transport goods, rep structures...

then you get some imaginative soul that wants to rat in a carrier, not an inherently terrible IDEA just really inefficient. When the average player thinks of a carrier they think of a protoss carrier sending out swarms of drones to molest things to death. While this is feasible in EVE the gameplay kind of devolves due to ease of cyno access/neutral alts/blap dreads/supers taking no extra skills to fly/not enough extra damage over a battleship.

Really if carriers get rebalanced what should they be capable of? 2000-3000 dps? That's not really unreasonable for a ship that takes a whole year to train for and use properly. A ship that can't move systems on its own and which takes a specialist industrial character to build.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#22 - 2013-09-04 02:05:24 UTC
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
Man I Love Flying Spaceships
#23 - 2013-09-04 05:50:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Ele Rebellion
Danika Princip wrote:
1600 DPS on an AFK ratting ship. So...40+ mil per tick running hubs. While watching TV.

What could possibly go wrong?



1600DPS? We talking drones not fighters... DPS would probably top around 1200.. on full DPS fit.
AFK Ratting? in a shiny ship? Doesn't that scream "GANK ME!" (also with the target hopping to drones and the need to swap between differnt sizes/types of drones its still far from being an AFK ratting ship)
40+ mil per tick? Dunno where your ratting! But anywhere I can think of with that kinda money output can already have Carriers.

Think of a battleship class carrier as being comparable to a current Marauder (not the Bastion one) In terms of DPS and Tank. Its just opened up to some additional roles.

Other notes I want to add. T2 Battleships are already going for 1Billion isk. (Note: you can pick up a carrier for 1.1Billion)

And for all the talk about the Dominix.. It has 5 drones and 6 Hardpoints. and still gets bonus to Hybrid Turrets. Meaning that this would still be far from Dominix... Extra drones and 0 Hardpoints. (Plus the dominix is T1.. there is no T2 Drone boat.. this would fill that gap... especially with the reduction of drone capabilities of Marauders.)

Edit: The Sin is kinda a drone boat.. but its the covert ops ships. Still has bonuses to hybrids (plus hybrid hardpoints) And then there's the Rattlesnake... thats well.. its the Rattlesnake (do I really need to say more?)
To mare
Advanced Technology
#24 - 2013-09-04 06:52:47 UTC
calling this a "new idea" its like saying the water is wet
Anthar Thebess
#25 - 2013-09-04 07:23:58 UTC
It calls dominix and proper fitting - try it.

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Aaron Kyoto
Frozen Silver.
Arkhos Core
#26 - 2013-09-04 09:18:07 UTC
Rain6638 wrote:
CCP wants you to bring friends, rather than give you the ability to launch 10 drones from a ship that is not a carrier.

Even Dreads and Titans are limited to 5 Blink


Dreads dont get drones :p
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2013-09-04 09:42:40 UTC
Ele Rebellion wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
1600 DPS on an AFK ratting ship. So...40+ mil per tick running hubs. While watching TV.

What could possibly go wrong?



1600DPS? We talking drones not fighters... DPS would probably top around 1200.. on full DPS fit.
AFK Ratting? in a shiny ship? Doesn't that scream "GANK ME!" (also with the target hopping to drones and the need to swap between differnt sizes/types of drones its still far from being an AFK ratting ship)
40+ mil per tick? Dunno where your ratting! But anywhere I can think of with that kinda money output can already have Carriers.

Think of a battleship class carrier as being comparable to a current Marauder (not the Bastion one) In terms of DPS and Tank. Its just opened up to some additional roles.

Other notes I want to add. T2 Battleships are already going for 1Billion isk. (Note: you can pick up a carrier for 1.1Billion)

And for all the talk about the Dominix.. It has 5 drones and 6 Hardpoints. and still gets bonus to Hybrid Turrets. Meaning that this would still be far from Dominix... Extra drones and 0 Hardpoints. (Plus the dominix is T1.. there is no T2 Drone boat.. this would fill that gap... especially with the reduction of drone capabilities of Marauders.)

Edit: The Sin is kinda a drone boat.. but its the covert ops ships. Still has bonuses to hybrids (plus hybrid hardpoints) And then there's the Rattlesnake... thats well.. its the Rattlesnake (do I really need to say more?)



My Ishtar, with only five T2 heavy drones, hits 800 DPS. I assume your ship would have a drone damage bonus to match, and would thus double it. I currently pull in ~20mil/tick while AFK. With double the DPS, I would expect to double it.

This battleship would cost a lot less than a carrier, and would be used in some deep part of nullsec, with intel channels and home defence gangs. The same way people currently drone rat.

The price of marauders spiked when the changes were announced. You can build them for less than 1b. A fit carrier costs much more than 1.1b too.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#28 - 2013-09-04 13:35:49 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
There are already battleship platforms that use drones. In what way would this be meaningfully different than a Dominix?


Double the DPS.


Wouldn't it be easier just to megabuff the Dominix if all you're going for is a massively-overpowered droneboat?
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#29 - 2013-09-04 13:38:25 UTC
All of which fails to compare the relative benefits of a conventional battleships vs this theoretical mini carrier.

From my own experience the major limitations to drone ships are the lack of hulls with damage bonuses. Light drones hardly need help with application and heavy drones don't exactly need more dps.

A ratting carrier can pretty much field 1400 dps with 4× dda and ogrea. But a rni can get a thousand dps with cruise missiles. Which is likely to be running sites faster?
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#30 - 2013-09-04 13:49:36 UTC
Quote:
A ratting carrier can pretty much field 1400 dps with 4× dda and ogrea. But a rni can get a thousand dps with cruise missiles. Which is likely to be running sites faster?


First off, comparing a capital ship to subcapitals makes the idea look bad. You should stop that.

Furthermore, there's a huge difference between suggesting a drone ship with a DPS focus (Though this has major balance implications since drone ships are so good at applying that DPS to smaller ships) and creating a "mini-carrier" with a ton of unnecessary new mechanics.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#31 - 2013-09-04 14:13:48 UTC
Yeah, there's not really any point other than being able to use jump gates and operate in high-sec. That being the case, seems like an easier fix to just allow carriers in high-sec.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Matthias Thullmann
Dynatron Inc.
#32 - 2013-09-04 19:42:15 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Matthias Thullmann wrote:
Escort carriers are already being discussed.


great but they wont get in the game because well its a bad idea


Maybe. CCP could make some T2 battleships require some carrier related skills, and make them into bonused drone boats like DNI or Sin.

I don't see the point, but they could do it without breaking the game.
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#33 - 2013-09-05 16:12:15 UTC
Like a few other people, I want a combat orca... A thing with some drones, some reps, quite immobile, large holds, ship hangar & fitting services, quite a lot of HP - and just enough self-sustainance (ehp/s) to match marauders/combat battleships as they are now. I personally regret that only a few want same thing. Probably they don't love their Orcas that much (if they have ones).
Rain6638
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2013-09-05 16:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6638
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Like a few other people, I want a combat orca... A thing with some drones, some reps, quite immobile, large holds, ship hangar & fitting services, quite a lot of HP - and just enough self-sustainance (ehp/s) to match marauders/combat battleships as they are now. I personally regret that only a few want same thing. Probably they don't love their Orcas that much (if they have ones).

I do. but in light of what the Dominix is, I think I'm asking for too much. considering that dual battle orcas are already tempting in their current form. (orcas fit your description as well as any other ship fits the role it is intended for)

OP just... make a sidekick account. have 2 of you everywhere you go. remote assistance is more efficient anyway. make it 2 dominixes. 2 ishtars, even

[ 2013.06.21 09:52:05 ] (notify) For initiating combat your security status has been adjusted by -0.1337
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#35 - 2013-09-05 17:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Alidiana
For it to be really combat orca, I need more focus in shield/armor hp (instead of structire), more slots, a little more drones and somehow more fittings to be able to use 6-8 large reps (that's what I'm aiming for), probably only bonused for range. That's not completely what orca is at the moment.
It should not outdps heavy battleships, though.
Qweasdy
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2013-09-05 18:23:45 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
from what I'm learning it seems like carriers have very limited use themselves. Outside of triage they dont really do very much. You'll probably find that fighters are a suboptimal thing to use for combat.


I use my carrier for a lot of things. Use your imagination.


Ok so looking beyond the logistics, they can transport goods, rep structures...

then you get some imaginative soul that wants to rat in a carrier, not an inherently terrible IDEA just really inefficient. When the average player thinks of a carrier they think of a protoss carrier sending out swarms of drones to molest things to death. While this is feasible in EVE the gameplay kind of devolves due to ease of cyno access/neutral alts/blap dreads/supers taking no extra skills to fly/not enough extra damage over a battleship.

Really if carriers get rebalanced what should they be capable of? 2000-3000 dps? That's not really unreasonable for a ship that takes a whole year to train for and use properly. A ship that can't move systems on its own and which takes a specialist industrial character to build.


Carriers are phenomenally useful ships, and also one of the best balanced ships in the game imo, it's a ship that can make itself useful in almost every situation.

For example: a neutral/hostile gang jumps into a friendly system nearby and starts shooting stuff, as a carrier pilot you can be in that system within minutes to help out with the fight. If the gang is fairly small and you feel safe engaging them you can join the fight directly with triage reps, massive tank or the ability to apply damage effectively to even the smallest targets. If however the fight is unsuitable/unsafe to do this in you can assign fighters to your friends/alts in T1 frigates and make your throwaway tackle ships hit as hard as a cruiser.

Now lets say despite your best efforts the hostiles overwhelm your defenses and go on to reinforce a pos or 2 before dropping their own. Bashing down a hostile tower with carrier support is effective and relatively risk free, unlike dreadnoughts. Assigning fighters to the subcaps shooting at the tower is a lot of added dps. Then of course to rep up the friendly towers once they come out of RF you have the best remote repping ability of anything else in the game with triage reps.

And obviously a carrier is a fantastic hauling ship on top of it's combat capabilities.

Carriers are always useful even if they're not always the most effective the use, they're good at everything but don't particularly excel in many areas.

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MBizon Osis
Doomheim
#37 - 2013-09-05 19:56:15 UTC  |  Edited by: MBizon Osis
Wayyyy back in the day this game had 15 drone Domis. And every one was on 56k dialup they lagged the servers. Not much dialup nowadays. 15 sentries would be a tad OP how about 15 light scouts? Even a tristan can do 5 light scouts why not change the max number according to light/med/heavy?
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-09-05 20:04:11 UTC
monkfish1234 wrote:
giving ships which would be 'common' more than 5 drones causes issues with drone blobs and lag. which was the reason the limit of 5 was originally introduced.

Introduced back when Jita lag ruled supreme, there wasn't an option to turn drone animations off, and CCP's servers were held together by old hummus.

A few hundred drones is no longer an issue. And it's already happening.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#39 - 2013-09-05 20:48:54 UTC
MBizon Osis wrote:
Wayyyy back in the day this game had 15 drone Domis. And every one was on 56k dialup they lagged the servers. Not much dialup nowadays. 15 sentries would be a tad OP how about 15 light scouts? Even a tristan can do 5 light scouts why not change the max number according to light/med/heavy?


Because then the hull in question would just completely invalidate any kind of frigate presence?
Lance Spectrum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-09-06 00:35:16 UTC
Personally, I'd be happy with just something along the following lines...

Vexor (and other cruiser class drone boats) - Role Bonus: Can fit up to 1 Drone Control Unit module.
Myrmidon (and other battle cruiser class drone boats) - Role Bonus: Can fit up to 2 Drone Control Unit modules.
Dominix (and other battleship class drone boats) - Role Bonus: Can fit up to 3 Drone Control Unit modules.

Add a Poergrid/CPU bonus specific to allow these modules to be fit (like covert ops ships get on cloaking modules), and job's done. Current bandwidth restrictions ensure Sentries would remain limited to 5 max, and requirement of the high slots for the Drone Control Units would ensure DPS doesn't get out of hand (the above 3 ships can fit all highs with turrets anyway, so any additional drones would be replacing a turret).