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Adapt Freighter and Jump Freighter

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#921 - 2013-09-03 18:14:45 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Care to link some of these killmails, or is this just another false claim like the one you made about freighters being suicide ganked by Bat Country every 20 minutes?


http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18471571&nolimit


And it was so profitable, too!



It was the reason it was ganked. Bat Country only ganks for profit remember.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#922 - 2013-09-03 18:17:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Domanique Altares
Psychoactive Stimulant wrote:
These ******** goon bitches would cry so hard if a freighter could fit a damage control. I'm for this idea just to see these gankers cry.

It's nice enough seeing freighter pilots cry (srsly... 2 webs and you instawarp, you get no love either), don't get me wrong. But wouldnt' it be nice to see these gankers cry in forums?

It'd sound like this:

"CCP, why'd you nerf ganking?"
"My epeen is broken!!! Unnerf ganking!"

The gankers can call frieghter pilots names all day, but you all know that if a freighter could fit a damage control, you'd see ganker tears like Niagra in here.


I like this post. It's a pleasant fiction, kind of like a fairy tale.

Now let's talk about what happens in reality.

Freighter Boy sees that he can now fit a DCII, and squeals with delight at this new buff. However, instead of just fitting the DCII, and becoming even less profitable to gank, Freighter Boy crams even more valuable **** into his hold. Because this is what the greedy, stupid freighter pilots do.

The gankers just add a Talos or two to their catalyst gang, and enjoy an even richer payday.*

Thus is the status quo preserved.

*A Talos or two is hyperbole, because it would take a handful once you buff all that structure. But the fact remains that the status quo would not change.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#923 - 2013-09-03 18:17:45 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Care to link some of these killmails, or is this just another false claim like the one you made about freighters being suicide ganked by Bat Country every 20 minutes?


http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18471571&nolimit


I stand corrected. It turns out we have ganked one webbed freighter out of several hundred.


https://zkillboard.com/detail/31575769/
https://zkillboard.com/detail/29318221/
https://zkillboard.com/detail/30087140/
ect.


Four out of several hundred, you're on a roll here. Now all you need to do is prove that we kill a freighter every 20 minutes to fully regain your credibility.



He did dispute your claims by 400% though... so far =P

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#924 - 2013-09-03 18:22:18 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


I think this is where the problem lies. If they are supposed to kill frigates then make them frigate killers, not freighter killers.




DPS is DPS, regardless of the source. You can gank a freighter with a fleet of noobships, if you want. And they cost exactly nothing.

Tippia did the math a while back, you can kill a Titan with noobships given enough numbers and time.



I'm still not sure an unreinforced server would allow that to be honest.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#925 - 2013-09-03 18:25:50 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:

I'm still not sure an unreinforced server would allow that to be honest.


CCP's hardware problems don't negate the fact that given enough free noobships, you could kill a titan with them, at absolutely zero cost for materials.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#926 - 2013-09-03 18:44:45 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Care to link some of these killmails, or is this just another false claim like the one you made about freighters being suicide ganked by Bat Country every 20 minutes?


http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18471571&nolimit


And it was so profitable, too!



It was the reason it was ganked. Bat Country only ganks for profit remember.


We got several billion from that one. Most of the double wrapped frdighters drop good stuff.
Dave stark
#927 - 2013-09-03 18:49:51 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
it wouldn't be so bad, but murk is an obvious and self confessed forum troll. why do people even bother replying to him?



I said I have trolled people. And listed the reasons for doing it. Doesn't mean I AM a troll.

You focus on too many incorrect things sir. By post, you troll far more than me.

And as an edit, it would be better without people like you NOT contributing to the thread. Blame grr goons for that one, it's just too easy.


oh please, you troll far more than i ever have.

better without people like me not posting... is that a double negative?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#928 - 2013-09-03 18:51:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Still stands that if ganking freighters was easy and massively profitable there would be more than 40 getting ganked a week.


If you accept my assertion, then it only stands that organizations comfortable with the moral tradeoff would participate. (which, AFAIK, is pretty accuracte). However, those likely to make the tradeoff are also less likely to be interested in the profit, making it hard to distinguish.


People do this for the profit not the km. Again, if it was as easy and profitable as you seem to think it is then there would be a lot more people doing it.



But it's less than incursions and L4 incomes...

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#929 - 2013-09-03 18:54:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
S Byerley wrote:


Please note the additional requirements



This is a pvp focused game. Thousands of corps have no issue with blowing up other people.



Hence the wardec aspect of preying on the stupidity of trying to 'work" during a wardec and the inherent sillyness of those wardecs. Especially when used to prey on industrials/miners and other non combat activities.

I still don't think only 30-40 freighters are getting killed a month. I'm sure it's a bit more.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#930 - 2013-09-03 19:11:34 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Still stands that if ganking freighters was easy and massively profitable there would be more than 40 getting ganked a week.


If you accept my assertion, then it only stands that organizations comfortable with the moral tradeoff would participate. (which, AFAIK, is pretty accuracte). However, those likely to make the tradeoff are also less likely to be interested in the profit, making it hard to distinguish.


People do this for the profit not the km. Again, if it was as easy and profitable as you seem to think it is then there would be a lot more people doing it.



But it's less than incursions and L4 incomes...


Yes it is.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#931 - 2013-09-03 19:12:38 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
S Byerley wrote:


Please note the additional requirements



This is a pvp focused game. Thousands of corps have no issue with blowing up other people.



Hence the wardec aspect of preying on the stupidity of trying to 'work" during a wardec and the inherent sillyness of those wardecs. Especially when used to prey on industrials/miners and other non combat activities.

I still don't think only 30-40 freighters are getting killed a month. I'm sure it's a bit more.


Nope. Only 30 to 40 get ganked per month.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#932 - 2013-09-03 19:26:03 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


I still don't think only 30-40 freighters are getting killed a month. I'm sure it's a bit more.


What makes you so sure?

Certainly, you must have access to some sort of metrics you could share with us.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#933 - 2013-09-03 19:31:59 UTC
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
S Byerley wrote:


I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes.

If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.


So why is it that only 30 to 40 get killed a month?



Are you counting the total number destroyed or just the ones you yourself kill? I've seen war reports with higher numbers (and yes, plenty of wardecs are enabled simply to destroy freighters).

I get this thread is based on ganks with no wardecs, flags, etc... but it looks like facts are also getting twisted around to suit theories so it may be worth bringing that up.


Because wardecs are irrelevant to the discussion. You could bake a DCII into the hull and they would still trivially die to a legal target.



If we are talking about the balancing of freighters in regards to the # of destroyers and the ehp of a freighter hull, it is indeed relevant.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#934 - 2013-09-03 19:32:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
S Byerley wrote:


I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes.

If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.


So why is it that only 30 to 40 get killed a month?



Are you counting the total number destroyed or just the ones you yourself kill? I've seen war reports with higher numbers (and yes, plenty of wardecs are enabled simply to destroy freighters).

I get this thread is based on ganks with no wardecs, flags, etc... but it looks like facts are also getting twisted around to suit theories so it may be worth bringing that up.


Wardecs are not suicide ganks and thus dont count as suicide ganks



Freighters are freighters, so they count as freighters.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#935 - 2013-09-03 19:32:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Except we don't actually make that much isk from ganking freighters. You seem to be ignoring this fact.


baltec claimed that 15+ people made 60b in one day... then claimed that figure matched up with your 2m/hour/person.

You'll have to fogive me if that gets a little confusing.


Suicide ganking isn't a taxable activity. I see where you're going wrong here, you don't understand game mechanics.



baltec did say they had a 3bil tax to wallet and their tax rate was 5%...

Whether you guys donate a portion of your proceeds to a specific wallet or not is not really the argument is it?


That was from ratting with a fleet.




/shrug

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Dave stark
#936 - 2013-09-03 19:33:31 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
S Byerley wrote:


I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes.

If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.


So why is it that only 30 to 40 get killed a month?



Are you counting the total number destroyed or just the ones you yourself kill? I've seen war reports with higher numbers (and yes, plenty of wardecs are enabled simply to destroy freighters).

I get this thread is based on ganks with no wardecs, flags, etc... but it looks like facts are also getting twisted around to suit theories so it may be worth bringing that up.


Wardecs are not suicide ganks and thus dont count as suicide ganks



Freighters are freighters, so they count as freighters.


but freighters that don't die to suicide ganks are irrelevant to the discussion in this thread.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#937 - 2013-09-03 19:35:33 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Psychoactive Stimulant wrote:
These ******** goon bitches would cry so hard if a freighter could fit a damage control. I'm for this idea just to see these gankers cry.

It's nice enough seeing freighter pilots cry (srsly... 2 webs and you instawarp, you get no love either), don't get me wrong. But wouldnt' it be nice to see these gankers cry in forums?

It'd sound like this:

"CCP, why'd you nerf ganking?"
"My epeen is broken!!! Unnerf ganking!"

The gankers can call frieghter pilots names all day, but you all know that if a freighter could fit a damage control, you'd see ganker tears like Niagra in here.


I like this post. It's a pleasant fiction, kind of like a fairy tale.

Now let's talk about what happens in reality.

Freighter Boy sees that he can now fit a DCII, and squeals with delight at this new buff. However, instead of just fitting the DCII, and becoming even less profitable to gank, Freighter Boy crams even more valuable **** into his hold. Because this is what the greedy, stupid freighter pilots do.

The gankers just add a Talos or two to their catalyst gang, and enjoy an even richer payday.*

Thus is the status quo preserved.

*A Talos or two is hyperbole, because it would take a handful once you buff all that structure. But the fact remains that the status quo would not change.



So change a 20 catalyst fleet to.... what... 37 of them?

That would have a serious impact on suicide ganking freighters.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#938 - 2013-09-03 19:36:36 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

I'm still not sure an unreinforced server would allow that to be honest.


CCP's hardware problems don't negate the fact that given enough free noobships, you could kill a titan with them, at absolutely zero cost for materials.



Validity.

Given enough ships into a system it matters when Concord is involved and you cannot coordinate an alpha strike correctly.

"Could" being the relative term.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#939 - 2013-09-03 19:37:03 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Care to link some of these killmails, or is this just another false claim like the one you made about freighters being suicide ganked by Bat Country every 20 minutes?


http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18471571&nolimit


And it was so profitable, too!



It was the reason it was ganked. Bat Country only ganks for profit remember.


We got several billion from that one. Most of the double wrapped frdighters drop good stuff.



I do not dispute it =P

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#940 - 2013-09-03 19:38:36 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
it wouldn't be so bad, but murk is an obvious and self confessed forum troll. why do people even bother replying to him?



I said I have trolled people. And listed the reasons for doing it. Doesn't mean I AM a troll.

You focus on too many incorrect things sir. By post, you troll far more than me.

And as an edit, it would be better without people like you NOT contributing to the thread. Blame grr goons for that one, it's just too easy.


oh please, you troll far more than i ever have.

better without people like me not posting... is that a double negative?



You've trolled in this thread more than I have in the last week.

Take your "oh please" elsewhere.

Not a double negative, a double entendre moreso.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.