These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Tier 3 battlecruiser are usless
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
kyrv
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#81 - 2011-11-12 21:47:34 UTC
Beside being great I think there fantastic, but yes reservations although I think they'd come in useful with a quick isk transfer system for carrier pilots to sell on the fly.
Vmir Gallahasen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2011-11-12 22:30:47 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Well I have a fit up there that has the same amount of tank as the Standard Nano Cane acting as Fire Support for a Gang so I would guess It is because you can get it to have the same amount of EHP as a Standard Nano Cane by using all Mids 4 slots for Tank. The Tornado can get 48000 EHP in the DPS Support Role.

Yes, let's fit the Tornado for "gang support" but not fit the nano cane the same way so we can skew the numbers! That sounds completely reasonable

Tippia wrote:
Anyway, everything you said here holds true for the BCs as well. They are meant to be used with a gang, so it is a thoroughly trivial matter to get the full DPS out of them, and no, you don't need to buzz around like your hair is on fire because your gang has already taken care of that problem. Yes, even the torp Naga will do full damage against most targets, if you use it correctly…

Since your own speed can counter your own dps even against battleships, it's also a thoroughly trivial matter for the enemy to apply full DPS to you, too (if you're not 'buzzing around'). And they don't need to tackle you for that.

Etheoma wrote:
gotta agree with whats his face, you cant just look at hit point and say ah that has a worse tank you have to look at the base resistances and if the ship has any resistance bonuses the tier 3s don't but eh you need to fit it up before saying anything dude

Err, if they've got the same resistances then yes, you really can just compare hitpoints. You shouldn't need to a fit a ship to figure that out
Alara IonStorm
#83 - 2011-11-12 22:57:30 UTC
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:

Yes, let's fit the Tornado for "gang support" but not fit the nano cane the same way so we can skew the numbers! That sounds completely reasonable

I did, it has 16% more Tank at a cost of significantly less DPS at a shorter range with less speed.

This thing is better at it and has way more then 50% tank when fit out properly.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#84 - 2011-11-12 23:28:19 UTC
Etheoma wrote:
Now before the flaming and tolling starts, really think about it what can this ship do better than any other ship in eve can't do in other words what do they add. now I can think of three uses for the tornado at least.

1. Blobing 1 or 2 people from a distance

2. Hit and run in a fleet battle or die

3. the obvious Suicide ganking

but all of those roles can be filled if not better at least equally by other ships

1. Blobing 1 or 2 people from a distance covet Ops but not from such a distance because you have damps

2. Hit and run in a fleet battle or die Covert Ops with bombs

3. Suicide ganking Tier one battleships considering the carebaers have been pacified with the reassurance that they will cost as much as those.

So what do they add? nothing as far as i can see because there speciality can be filled if not better, equally be other ships that are less specialized which means there specialty makes them worse if not = to other ships in eve

Constructive criticism only pleas! or agreement I can abide agreement. :P

Im going to edit this considering people keep on saying the same thing, if you dont want to get near insta poped in a BC gang for support or what ever your going to have to be out at range which even then it doesn't assure you of safety considering battleships can reach even further and being out at range means that you have to reduce your dps to around 350 to 450 which the SB with all skills to 5 can do 550 with other modules like cloak etc or 640 straight damage.

ALSO because some people seem to not know anything about SB's if your in an SB and you die you ****** up or someone ****** up or your ******* unlucky, because those things with a good pilot are near impossible to kill.

And yes if what i heard about the Naga is ture and it actually has a semi decent tank Yes it could tank a POS in a C1 but how many people actually want to take a C1 those things are like common as hell and near empty to boot so why, yes i suppose you could get the into C3s etc with large numbers so yeah they could be useful there but really is there only saving grease the fact that they can take POS's down in WH space... wow there a niche if i had ever heard it.

*head in hand* *sighs* now just dont comment if you have never been in an SB gang and not lost all of your ships because im not going to explain how to use an SB and how hard they are to kill with a good pilot. So just believe me on the fact that there hard to kill if the pilot knows what they are doing. its not about tank with the SB just as its not about the tank with the falcon


How about LOL to each point you make.

But here:

1) why blob far off when you can do it in their faces and watch them melt?
2) Low sec is awesome you should try it... bombers die to gate guns unless you're piratey
3) Sui-ganks are fun diversions but are no longer money making expeditions into fraud territory
4) They do several things very well: Kill more mack's and hulks, make great anti-cap ships due to smaller sig and high dps, make great hunter-killer squads and support wings for larger fleets. They will do relatively well at gate camps with fater locks than bs's and bs level dps with superior tracking/falloff. They serve as excellent ships for certain roles but do not take the place of proper BS fleets with much higher ehp (2-3x minimum).

I've tried each one on the test server. Found that two talos can rip through a buffered sleip receiving carrier reps. plenty of dps. I'm gonna buy a bp0 and sell em to goons for ganking minres. Sorry miners.

You have to fly each one differently or as a combined arms team. Don't be afraid to mix em with recons and some logistics.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2011-11-12 23:41:01 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
[quote=Etheoma]

You have to fly each one differently or as a combined arms team. Don't be afraid to mix em with recons and some logistics.





Recons.... and large turrets are always a good mix.
Alara IonStorm
#86 - 2011-11-12 23:48:31 UTC
Onictus wrote:
[
Recons.... and large turrets are always a good mix.



Gotta love the Rapier =)

2 Webs and a Bonused Painter are gonna make these things a lot more fun...

For me, not the other guy.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#87 - 2011-11-12 23:58:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:
Since your own speed can counter your own dps even against battleships, it's also a thoroughly trivial matter for the enemy to apply full DPS to you, too (if you're not 'buzzing around'). And they don't need to tackle you for that.
…except that the enemy will have problems shooting the BCs at all, whereas the BCs will have enough help to ensure that their own speed is a complete non-issue. And if you're that worried about tracking, just fly a torp Naga.

Gang ships. That's they key detail here.
TonyCandthejets
Doomheim
#88 - 2011-11-13 03:25:21 UTC
They would be good if they did not have absolutely terrible capacitor.
Try putting a medium tech 2 armor repair module on the talos. Go ahead I dare you.

It's a class cannon. My proteus can run level 4s way better then the talos can.
Cunane Jeran
#89 - 2011-11-13 05:18:06 UTC
Personally I like the role, If you haven't noticed, carriers are ******* everywhere when your roaming low-sec in a BC gang, appearing in gate camps / stations just just general hot-dropping fun. The new BC's offer a great nimble platform to join in roams and add substantial amount of extra DPS against them (and Battleships) at a low price.

They have other potential uses, POS bashing in C1/C2's and a cheaper gank ship in highsec after the insurance changes comes to mind.

I'm sure given time people will think of all kinds of crazy uses for them.
Yin Utada
Doomheim
#90 - 2011-11-13 08:30:32 UTC
They're a questionable niche.



Well done wasting great models and art on a ****** useless as **** role.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2011-11-13 09:05:03 UTC
Yin Utada wrote:
They're a questionable niche.



Well done wasting great models and art on a ****** useless as **** role.



Useless is a bit unfair, people will find uses for them.

Tornado ..point? LOL why bother. Tornado is going to be ALL over low-sec, in gank packs that never close to point range and in alpha packs that are 80km out.

5 Tornadoes with with a nice juicy bricked up BS baiting is going to effectively one shot-one kill anything south of an R'R BS gang....and that gang is only going to be able to kill what they can tackle.....

.....and that frigging hull nearly as fast as a fleet stabber.

Oracle?

Likely the same thing, mobile damage outside of point and fast enough to stay there.


In small gangs they are going to be crucial until people start changing fleet doctrines around. T2s BC's either can't catch them or can't tank them, and as it stands a ten man gang has what 1 ceptor? two maybe if they are drams?

We guess what, ceptors and vaga's are going to be close to the only thing that can run these ships down. Useless LOL.
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2011-11-13 10:45:47 UTC
While the new BCs are decent gank platforms, that is all they are.

If they get into a genuine fight, they are going to just die horribly.

And like I've said in a few other threads, if you aren't going to get shot at back, then ibis do the job just as well. You just cannot ignore how bad they will perform under fire. With their ehp, you probably won't even get reps to them before they die. And moar dps is almost never the answer to winning a fight. Yes, they will kill things. But they will die fast.

They cannot fight things with more tank the same dps (battleships) nor can they fight things who us speed and sig to mitigate damage (anything cruiser sized or below), so what the hell are they going to fight ?
Eva Blacklist
Friendless.
#93 - 2011-11-13 10:55:59 UTC
After logging into the test server, flying about, I like the new tier 3 battlecruisers. They're certainly not useless. Big smile
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2011-11-13 12:03:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Valea Silpha wrote:
While the new BCs are decent gank platforms, that is all they are.

If they get into a genuine fight, they are going to just die horribly.

And like I've said in a few other threads, if you aren't going to get shot at back, then ibis do the job just as well. You just cannot ignore how bad they will perform under fire. With their ehp, you probably won't even get reps to them before they die. And moar dps is almost never the answer to winning a fight. Yes, they will kill things. But they will die fast.

They cannot fight things with more tank the same dps (battleships) nor can they fight things who us speed and sig to mitigate damage (anything cruiser sized or below), so what the hell are they going to fight ?



Its not simple as the target can't shoot back, its being able to keep the target from shooting back.

Against a T1 battleship (or gang) you are absolutely correct, as long as number favor the T3s the BS's are going to be forced off the field or die to plinking from battle cruisers that are simply unmatched in speed without doing something...extravagant.

Any sort of even odds the BS force the BCs out, with the exception of an alpha gang, and the BS's stand to lose a ship or two aligning.

Its a total rock paper scissors thing, I'm rather fond of the idea.

I hope it will end the parade of tier II BCs that is basically all you see in low, because the best counter for all four hulls is a battleship, if you don't have the battleship and/or a lot of tackle......well you are going to get slammed
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2011-11-13 12:04:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
derp
Alara IonStorm
#96 - 2011-11-13 12:06:56 UTC
Onictus wrote:

I hope it will end the parade of tier II BCs that is basically all you see in low,

Not Empty Quoting.
Scorpionidae
#97 - 2011-11-13 12:42:00 UTC
Big guns on little ships FTW!?!?!

Well I can't wait to fly them anyways.

Scorpionidae Big smile

Every Day I be Trolling
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#98 - 2011-11-13 14:19:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
All I can say is that I've bean killing those over and over on Sisi, the only causing problems is the Tornado (once again) sniping at over 130 and putting shots on you harder than the poor Talos can ever whelm something in his own combat range.

Pick a good fleet mix AHACS, Dramiels/DD's, Cynas, Vagas, a few missile boats (T3's better to keep snipers far away or whelm everything on approach), then pick a mix of 800mm and arty tornados, put 2 guardians 2basi one scimi

You can't really imagine what/how many you can kill with this (about 25guys) and how many you'll loose (0 losses for 2hours before one picking ammo at station got ganked on undock)

So yeah, Oracle may work fine in a dedicated fleet for med range with strong rep behind, Naga is just a Cap killer, Tornado is everything you want to do in the game and Talos, once again, an useless toy for other purpose than gank or station/gate games.

EDIT: 2 hours of perma shoot stuff (not waiting at station). Nothing from frigs to Titans can resist to a fleet of those with dedicated and smart logistics. -unless you get hotdropped by dozens of SC's -ho w8 !!
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#99 - 2011-11-13 19:29:45 UTC
Wrote this in another thread.


"Had sometime to spend on some things. I'm really starting to think all tier 3 battle-cruisers are overpowered. Why would I ever use a Eagle (not that I do now) over a Naga or Talos. Both are incredible long range hybrid platforms. Same with the other tier 3 battle-cruisers (Zealot, Muninn, Eagle, Deimos NERF). CCP should limit these bonuses to auto-cannons, siege missiles, blasters, and pulse lasers. Also, CCP should get rid of siege missiles bonuses and hard-points on the Naga. Stick with hybrids...

This first setup is better than the Talos @ being a blaster ship...Ship has around 40,000 ehp, 1,400m/sec, 900 damage per second.


[Naga, ******]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Medium Shield Extender II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Scrambler II

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


This set-up is pretty nasty @ range. 500 damage per second @ 100km.


[Naga, ****** On The RooF!]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender I
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I"
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2011-11-14 02:40:18 UTC
m0cking bird wrote:


This first setup is better than the Talos @ being a blaster ship...Ship has around 40,000 ehp, 1,400m/sec, 900 damage per second.


Maybe...




m0cking bird wrote:

This set-up is pretty nasty @ range. 500 damage per second @ 100km.


[Naga, ****** On The RooF!]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender I
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I"


[/quote]


Till someone wanders by with 1400mm artillery and one shots it sure.