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New ECM idea...
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Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#81 - 2013-08-11 22:33:18 UTC
Katia Echerie wrote:
That said, I think ECM is the most frustrating of all because it essentially makes it an I win button if you have a single bonused hull on your side against a solo PVPer.


That can be any recon/e-war used in combo against a solo pvp'er.


Example I encountered a few times, the rapier assist on a bubble camp. Rapier is lr webbing and painting, dps assist, warp bubble preventing gtfo. End resutl....boom for me. Doesn't even need the bubble if the tackle is well chosen and the dps is there. I have the rapier lr webbing me with paint boost....I shoot it (if I can) the dps is beating me up. I shoot the dps (1 of many), the rapier is making me fat (sig wise) and slow so I am not hardest thing to hit eve at that moment. I try to shoot the tackle the rapier and the dps is smacking me around.


Senser damps can shut me down in kite builds. Most of my arty builds are thin on tank (if its even there). I spec'd to engage at bleeding edge of point in say an arty wolf. Make me get closer and 2 things go against me. With little/no tank....I don't really want to brawl. Target depending my arty at sr ranges is merely an academic ability to to fire back. Yes I can fire back....and rarely if at all am I hitting a damn thing. Same can be said for my arty muninn....I am much happier shooting at ranged targets.

If solo and you meet the right fleet comp with recon/ewar support you are dead regardless basically. ECM shuts down targetting. in the above instances I have given you have the ability to fire back....unless mouth breathers in the camp its does little good however. Basically a case of 6 on hand, half a dozen in the other. Call it what you will, you are basically screwed if that non falcon recon pilot and his friends aren't tards.
Gigolo Jo
Matari Exodus
#82 - 2013-08-12 08:21:44 UTC
You are right, that the other EW is also effective in this situation, but you can be in a ship like a Myrm or some other well tanked BC, BS and easily fight that gate camp. I fought a lot of camps with 3-4 people and some recon support like a Curse, Rapier, Lachesis with my Myrms or other BCs and I often could easily manage to tank them while I kill one or two ships. Those three recon type ships are annoying but do not win the fight for their comrades in such a situation. But the Falcon, Blackbird is a 100% win in any situation. I have nearly never seen a situation in small scale where a Falcon is easier to fight than any other of the recons. Maybe in some kite fleets, but even then the Falcon is often more annoying than a Rapier due to its superior range.

My past video(s): DRONE HARASSMENT My latest video**: **V.Ex.o.R.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-08-12 08:37:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Except when the jams dont land and they die in a fire.

A falcon (fit per this thread) has ~ 2/3 chance of jamming you (in an appropriately skilled myrm). A blackbird, even less.


And something else to ponder - you often see the other recons. How often do you see rooks? If ECM is THAT good, where are the swarms of rooks? Because there's a hell of a lot of other recons flying around, I think I've seen one rook in the wild, ever.


Edit: And as mentioned, you wanna kill ECM birds? Fly a 1.1 HAC, they'll crap ALL over them with their base sensor str.

Edit 2: What we need as a short term fix is no relocking required and more availablity of untargetted ammo (FoF type stuff) so people feel less impotent - I mean it'll change nothing, but it'll have a psychological effect and ammo doesnt have a 'fitting slot' cost like eccm which people always grump about (and I lean towards probably rightly so, however with the constant erosion of ECM power, the "need" for ECCM is lower than it's ever been.)
Gigolo Jo
Matari Exodus
#84 - 2013-08-12 09:46:14 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Except when the jams dont land and they die in a fire.

A falcon (fit per this thread) has ~ 2/3 chance of jamming you (in an appropriately skilled myrm). A blackbird, even less.


They would not die in a fire because they decloak at 70km range when the fight has already started. So try to move 70km with your probably webbed Myrm, Ferox, Drake whatever and kill the falcon. That means you are going like 400m/s with your ship. The falcon, if it is not stupid will go, lets assume without a prop mod, 200m/s. That means you need 225s to come into a fighting range of 25km. If the falcon fits a prop mod you are screwed anyhow. And even if you manage to move the 45-50km while being shot at and trying to lock stuff, the falcon just warps and comes back in in 60s.

And the point why you do not see rooks is that they cannot cloak and we had the discussion about the psychological effect of ECM before right?

What I would like to know:

How many people of the pro ECM group in this thread have at least tried doing solo or small gang stuff?

My past video(s): DRONE HARASSMENT My latest video**: **V.Ex.o.R.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#85 - 2013-08-12 10:20:22 UTC
Falcons are in falloff at 70km, thus not as strong, odds drop. Blackbirds aren't but already have a lower jam chance.

I'm not pro ecm, I dont like the mechanic and its implementation. If you think being jammed is annoying, try training for months and months to do NOTHING over a third of the time. I dont, however, believe it is overpowered. It is balanced, potentially even on the weak side (technically) but it's not well implemented balance is all.

And, again, I've yet to see a replacement for it that's I'd ever actually consider flying instead of dropping to another recon.

For the last time, rage inducing annoying is NOT the same as overpowered. It's an argument for a change, certainly - but every single change I've ever read falls into one of two buckets: unworkable or neutering the ships out of a misplaced vengeance.

No posts ever consider the other side of the coin, like a good balance/change debate should. Failure rate, survivability under fire, mod requirement to get to these jam levels, rig requirement for the same, combat effectiveness, why would one undock the ship under a new proposal with other EWAR available and so on.

For example you're proposal was a straight up serious nerf to the ewar. No ifs, or buts, a huge nerf. To something that's not imbalanced - you have to give it something if you're taking something. Can you give a realistic time when you would use that type of ewar over another boat? Something not super niche. I certainly cant.
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#86 - 2013-08-12 11:07:22 UTC
Oh it's this again.

Come back tomorrow for the next topic on this subject, this time in GD board..
Aldap
State War Academy
Caldari State
#87 - 2013-08-15 09:05:34 UTC
So I'm flying in this hyperspace highway, and I see a ship to my left, and its CCP's ship!
To my horrifying shock, they're asleep at the 'wheel'!
I'm trying to shoot some fireworks at them to wake up, but unfortunately I'm permajammed by the EC300s of the ship behind me.
So all I can do is... bump!

An interesting article about Solo PvP: http://themittani.com/features/new-eden-solo
Gigi Barbagrigia
Digital Oddity
#88 - 2013-09-03 09:35:39 UTC
“Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.”

Funny how even when debate starts at the top of that list it tends to nosedive towards the bottom.

The problem as I see it is in CCP's stubbornness at clinging to this "racial diversity" idea that 15 years ago when they started playing with internet spaceships might have looked great ... with 20 ships there were. Now it's just a mess. I mean does anybody with 5+ M SP even give a flying f* about it? You train what is useful and/or fun. That's one of the strong selling points of Eve, is it not? No limits. So why do we still have these sometimes silly ideas being forced down racial lines just so RaceA's advanced whatever is distinct from RaceB's one in complete defiance to the fact that nobody will use RaceB's because RaceA's is simply better?

In every game you have limited number of mechanics. You don't "invent" stuff just so blues are different than reds in more than colour. Maybe, just maybe you follow that train if you had very defined racial limitations and you absolutely wanted to make your workdays a nightmare trying to do asymmetrical balancing but here, really?

ECM is weird mash of debuffs and crowd control. Both mechanics are well defined and have been invented 20+ years ago. If devs would simple acknowledge the fact and apply effects to what can be done in Eve we could have not-chance based, useful and balanced toys to play with. It also wouldn't be a precedence either; they did move "advanced" mining/salvaging to transracial realm, did they not? Why was it OK for ORE ships to appear but god forbid we had debuff/cc ships that had nothing to do with race? Because miners don't throw stones at each other on the forums?

Btw, ECM is more a stun than debuff, so basically crowd control.

Where are ECM modules of different sizes, different ranges at which they are useful, different duration/effect ratios, etc? That's diversity not some arbitrary half arsed lore that says French SD.