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Recently, many ethnic Minmatar have claimed that the wave of retributive violence against them throu

Author
Confliktus
Perkone
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-08-28 10:50:36 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Rainus Max wrote:

The Federation has done a pretty good job against defending itself against Caldari aggression

Double incorrect.
First: It is the Federation, who are aggressors and attacked our home planet, twice already. We are just taking back what is rightfully ours. This is not aggression. What the Federation does - is.
Second: While the Federation had succeed for the first time, second time they did horrible job failed. The planet is still partially under our control.
But I hope it will be changed soon and the remaining federal occupants will be either booted into open space, or will sink in their own blood.
What they did good job in, is killing our citizens. And for this they will pay.

Returning to the aggression, soon you will see it. The Caldari aggression will begin, when you will see our fleets on low orbits of Gallente Prime and Villore, preparing for orbital bombardment with following launching of numerous dropships, that will cover the sun.

But even then it won't be real aggression.

It will be JUSTICE



My fellow citizen... are you aware that such a thing will not happen? Are you also aware that if it did come to pass millions would simply die for nothing? A massive space battlefield were thousands upon thousands of ships would be destroyed just for the sake of satisfying some old feud.

We are not arrogant like the Amarr and we are certainly not bloodlusting Matari warmongers ( not that i hold all Matari to this same standard ) .. we are Caldari and while united we should fight with purpose and with our brains..

In case you haven't noticed Miss Kim, by attacking the Federation you are poking around the sides of a monster that once awakened and propped into gear will strike back with such force that will send our fleets back reeling from the blow.

Both sides are guilty and the crime is lack of understanding, while I as Caldari do frown upon the past history of the Gallente and Caldari people I am also a realist and the future does not lie by any means in confrontation but cooperation, profitable cooperation for both sides.

Like it or not we need the Gallente just as much as we need the Matari and... regretfully in many aspects the Amarr.
Kaid Hayden
Seven Stars Search and Rescue
#62 - 2013-08-28 13:22:29 UTC
The onus is on the Federation to change itself to be true to its ideals. We can pat ourselves on the back for being the most open, democratic and diverse society in the universe, but the rest of the cluster don't care about our self-congratulations but about our actions. Sadly the current administration don't seem to get that.

I hope our Matari brothers and sisters will have the patience to stand by us while we try to find our way again.

There are many ideologies in the Federation, and the leadership at any one given point don't necessarily represent the Federation as a whole.
Etienne Saissore
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-08-29 17:05:42 UTC
No one should be denied opportunities on the basis of arbitrary labels or meaningless divisions.

Even though the competition on the Federal job market is tough and discriminatory practices seem to have taken root on its darkest corners, not all employers are alike.

Reclamation Technologies is a diversity valuing organization. Our recruitment and career development policies are neutral with regard to ethnicity, creed, age, ancestry, color, marital status, race, caste, gender, bloodline, body modification, sexual orientation, genetic constitution, religion, home planet, political affiliation, pregnancy, mental or physical disability or national origin.

We warmly welcome all Matari job seekers who are not afraid of challenges to apply for positions in our company. Together we can overcome the prejudices and change the cluster.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#64 - 2013-08-29 22:26:55 UTC
Kaid Hayden wrote:
The onus is on the Federation to change itself to be true to its ideals. We can pat ourselves on the back for being the most open, democratic and diverse society in the universe, but the rest of the cluster don't care about our self-congratulations but about our actions. Sadly the current administration don't seem to get that.

I hope our Matari brothers and sisters will have the patience to stand by us while we try to find our way again.

There are many ideologies in the Federation, and the leadership at any one given point don't necessarily represent the Federation as a whole.

Pray tell, remind me what onerous acts the present administration has committed to earn your scorn?

Or are you just another Gallente self hater making excuses for tribal bad behavior?
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#65 - 2013-08-29 22:35:39 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Kaid Hayden wrote:
The onus is on the Federation to change itself to be true to its ideals. We can pat ourselves on the back for being the most open, democratic and diverse society in the universe, but the rest of the cluster don't care about our self-congratulations but about our actions. Sadly the current administration don't seem to get that.

I hope our Matari brothers and sisters will have the patience to stand by us while we try to find our way again.

There are many ideologies in the Federation, and the leadership at any one given point don't necessarily represent the Federation as a whole.

Pray tell, remind me what onerous acts the present administration has committed to earn your scorn?

Or are you just another Gallente self hater making excuses for tribal bad behavior?


You do realise Mr Hayden is speaking of Federal Citizens of Minmatar Origin being patient with the Federal Government as opposed to the Republic being patient?
Kaid Hayden
Seven Stars Search and Rescue
#66 - 2013-08-30 19:34:56 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Kaid Hayden wrote:
The onus is on the Federation to change itself to be true to its ideals. We can pat ourselves on the back for being the most open, democratic and diverse society in the universe, but the rest of the cluster don't care about our self-congratulations but about our actions. Sadly the current administration don't seem to get that.

I hope our Matari brothers and sisters will have the patience to stand by us while we try to find our way again.

There are many ideologies in the Federation, and the leadership at any one given point don't necessarily represent the Federation as a whole.

Pray tell, remind me what onerous acts the present administration has committed to earn your scorn?

Or are you just another Gallente self hater making excuses for tribal bad behavior?


By conflating class unrest with ethnic unrest, you are creating "tribal bad behavior".

Mr Darkefyre, thank you - but I was in fact talking about the Republic as well. I think we all benefit from trying to strengthen the bonds with our friends.
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#67 - 2013-08-30 21:03:22 UTC
Kaid Hayden wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Kaid Hayden wrote:
The onus is on the Federation to change itself to be true to its ideals. We can pat ourselves on the back for being the most open, democratic and diverse society in the universe, but the rest of the cluster don't care about our self-congratulations but about our actions. Sadly the current administration don't seem to get that.

I hope our Matari brothers and sisters will have the patience to stand by us while we try to find our way again.

There are many ideologies in the Federation, and the leadership at any one given point don't necessarily represent the Federation as a whole.

Pray tell, remind me what onerous acts the present administration has committed to earn your scorn?

Or are you just another Gallente self hater making excuses for tribal bad behavior?


By conflating class unrest with ethnic unrest, you are creating "tribal bad behavior".

Mr Darkefyre, thank you - but I was in fact talking about the Republic as well. I think we all benefit from trying to strengthen the bonds with our friends.


In that case, my apologies for misrepresenting your position. I had believed it would have been better for the Gallente Administration to primarily focus on ways of reducing tension within their own borders. Staying true to your founding principles and treating all of your citizens equally regardless of their origins or beliefs.

The problem, as we see from recent articles, seems to be a habit for the mentality of the mob to take control in times of adversity and strike out at those they see as representing the source of the adversity.

And yes, I'm fully aware the Republic is just as guilty of this. It's something both nations need to work upon.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-08-30 21:19:55 UTC
Confliktus wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Rainus Max wrote:

The Federation has done a pretty good job against defending itself against Caldari aggression

Double incorrect.
First: It is the Federation, who are aggressors and attacked our home planet, twice already. We are just taking back what is rightfully ours. This is not aggression. What the Federation does - is.
Second: While the Federation had succeed for the first time, second time they did horrible job failed. The planet is still partially under our control.
But I hope it will be changed soon and the remaining federal occupants will be either booted into open space, or will sink in their own blood.
What they did good job in, is killing our citizens. And for this they will pay.

Returning to the aggression, soon you will see it. The Caldari aggression will begin, when you will see our fleets on low orbits of Gallente Prime and Villore, preparing for orbital bombardment with following launching of numerous dropships, that will cover the sun.

But even then it won't be real aggression.

It will be JUSTICE



My fellow citizen... are you aware that such a thing will not happen? Are you also aware that if it did come to pass millions would simply die for nothing? A massive space battlefield were thousands upon thousands of ships would be destroyed just for the sake of satisfying some old feud.

We are not arrogant like the Amarr and we are certainly not bloodlusting Matari warmongers ( not that i hold all Matari to this same standard ) .. we are Caldari and while united we should fight with purpose and with our brains..

They have committed a crime against humanity. Their government should be deposed and everyone involved in this so called "operation highlander" should be put under tribunal with public hearing, so all cluster will know about their crimes. This should be done not of bloodlust, not of vengeance, but for securing the future of our children and our nation. And all other nations too, of course.

Confliktus wrote:

In case you haven't noticed Miss Kim, by attacking the Federation you are poking around the sides of a monster that once awakened and propped into gear will strike back with such force that will send our fleets back reeling from the blow.

This monster is awoken now. It is our duty to push it back into his cave so he won't pop his ugly head ever again.
They have started the all out war by attacking our planet outside of designated warzone. We shouldn't follow regulations anymore.

Confliktus wrote:

Like it or not we need the Gallente just as much as we need the Matari and... regretfully in many aspects the Amarr.

You speak as a traitor! Amarr are our trusty allies and best friends!
Well, and, we indeed need Amarr and Matari... and maybe even Jin-Mei and Intaki. But we will never need such scum as gallentean swines! They can't give us anything except decadence and degradation! Their place is in cages, in zoo, not among civilized peoples!!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2013-08-30 21:27:13 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:


You speak as a traitor!


You have no right to be calling other Caldari a traitor. Considering that you support Heth, and Heth and his supporters have been flagged by the CEP as terrorist and enemies of the State, that technically makes you the traitor.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#70 - 2013-08-31 00:36:36 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
I had believed it would have been better for the Gallente Administration to primarily focus on ways of reducing tension within their own borders.

Keeping Tribal fleets out of Federal territory might help in this respect.
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Staying true to your founding principles and treating all of your citizens equally regardless of their origins or beliefs..

Interesting then isn't it that billions fled the "tolerance" of the former Republic for the alleged "inequality" of the Federation.
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
And yes, I'm fully aware the Republic is just as guilty of this. It's something both nations need to work upon.

In this alone at least we can agree.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#71 - 2013-08-31 09:23:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Eran Mintor
Confliktus wrote:
My fellow citizen... are you aware that such a thing will not happen? Are you also aware that if it did come to pass millions would simply die for nothing? A massive space battlefield were thousands upon thousands of ships would be destroyed just for the sake of satisfying some old feud.


Such a thing has already happened. We have lost millions in this war that started only because of old feuds. There was no change to create it besides opportunities...

Confliktus wrote:
Both sides are guilty and the crime is lack of understanding, while I as Caldari do frown upon the past history of the Gallente and Caldari people I am also a realist and the future does not lie by any means in confrontation but cooperation, profitable cooperation for both sides.


I hope I am misinterpreting your statement here...but it seems like you wish to create peace by simply finding means of profit that outweigh any misgivings, rather than distancing yourself from our ancestor's actions.

We all may be like our fathers, but we are not them.

The best solution for peace is to bury these 'old feuds' that have been so deeply ingrained in our culture.

To forgive but never forget does not mean you always act with prejudice.

Diana Kim wrote:

They have committed a crime against humanity. Their government should be deposed and everyone involved in this so called "operation highlander" should be put under tribunal with public hearing, so all cluster will know about their crimes.


Sweetheart, I wish you weren't so close-minded sometimes. You have a good heart, in my experience, but you are often blinded by your feelings. I wonder, how would you feel if this tribunal you feel is so necessary for the Gallente would happen for the Caldari?

What if the State cracked down on everyone who supported Heth, who has committed crimes against the State? Let's take your words, and reflect them in a mirror...

'They have committed a crime against humanity. Their government should be deposed and everyone involved in this so called [coup] should be put under tribunal with public hearing, so all cluster will know about their crimes.'

Would you willingly submit to the rulings of such a Tribunal even if you felt you were upholding your duty as a State Citizen? Would you follow a ruling even though you resist the rulings against Heth so far?

You are a strong woman, but I feel you will only find solace after you hit rock-bottom. I pray you will live up to the name of the Caldari dreadnought, and rise from the ashes again.

-Eran
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#72 - 2013-08-31 12:02:47 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
I had believed it would have been better for the Gallente Administration to primarily focus on ways of reducing tension within their own borders.

Keeping Tribal fleets out of Federal territory might help in this respect.


Last I checked, we were discussing violence against Ethnic Matari Federal Civilians within the borders of the Federation. Are you suggesting that Violence against those civilians is somehow justified by the actions of the Republic Fleet?

The Fleet caused the problem, the fleet should face the repercussions, not Innocent civilians.

James Syagrius wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Staying true to your founding principles and treating all of your citizens equally regardless of their origins or beliefs..

Interesting then isn't it that billions fled the "tolerance" of the former Republic for the alleged "inequality" of the Federation.


Ah, the "It doesn't matter how bad it is in the Federation, it's worse in the Republic" defence?

This isn't the Republic claiming Inequality, this is Federal Matari themselves. You know, those who are actually being directly affected by it? I'm of mixed heritage myself, born in the Federation. I'm well aware of the tarnish on Gallente Ideals.

However, just because the Ideals are currently tarnished, it doesn't mean they aren't worth striving towards. I'd love to see a Federation where the Ideal was reality.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2013-08-31 14:11:29 UTC
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
but there's actually a reasonable proportion of Minmatar in the Empire and associated bodies that are content where they are without being chained down. You think every freed slave automatically goes running back to the Republic?

Read my post again. I never denied that.


All right, try this one on for size: if the Empire were to release all its slaves, and even a quarter of those released returned to the Republic, it would result in the Republic's total collapse. I've stated in the past that mass release of slaves would be crippling to the Empire as well, but honestly I think it would benefit more.

The Republic's resources are stretched anyway. Last I heard, they were still relying on aid from the Federation. A sudden population increase of a third (from just that one quarter, mind you) would cause total chaos. More than that, and the Republic simply would not cope. I could actually see a mass exodus back to the Empire, because hey, we might be second class citizens there, but at least we get food and a roof over our heads.

The economics and logistics just don't add up. Simple as that.


The Amarrian economy is entirely built on the slave trade.

And if you think that someone would willingly be a slave you are delusional.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#74 - 2013-08-31 15:57:48 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
And if you think that someone would willingly be a slave you are delusional.


There are far worse things to be. Walk down the average street in the Kingdom or Empire, go up to a slave, and ask if they'd prefer uncertainty, poverty and potentially prejudice for their beliefs, or the knowledge of a roof over their heads, food on the table and some degree of confidence in the future...

Well, it won't be unanimous either way, but human beings like certainties.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2013-08-31 16:40:08 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
I hope I am misinterpreting your statement here...but it seems like you wish to create peace by simply finding means of profit that outweigh any misgivings, rather than distancing yourself from our ancestor's actions.


Confliktus makes a lot of sense here. It's pretty rare (in the Federation or the State, at least) for someone to ignore things that directly benefit themselves. Mutual profit can be the sort of glue that sticks people together in an environment where they can start to understand one another.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Ollie Rundle
#76 - 2013-08-31 23:31:02 UTC
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
Ayallah wrote:
And if you think that someone would willingly be a slave you are delusional.


There are far worse things to be. Walk down the average street in the Kingdom or Empire, go up to a slave, and ask if they'd prefer uncertainty, poverty and potentially prejudice for their beliefs, or the knowledge of a roof over their heads, food on the table and some degree of confidence in the future...

Well, it won't be unanimous either way, but human beings like certainties.


There are better ways to collect evidence for your argument than with the liberal use of leading questions.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#77 - 2013-09-01 06:25:25 UTC
Ollie Rundle wrote:
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
Ayallah wrote:
And if you think that someone would willingly be a slave you are delusional.


There are far worse things to be. Walk down the average street in the Kingdom or Empire, go up to a slave, and ask if they'd prefer uncertainty, poverty and potentially prejudice for their beliefs, or the knowledge of a roof over their heads, food on the table and some degree of confidence in the future...

Well, it won't be unanimous either way, but human beings like certainties.


There are better ways to collect evidence for your argument than with the liberal use of leading questions.


There are certainly examples of slaves who decided to remain in the Empire until they were absorbed in as citizenry. Also, we have quite a few slaves who are against leaving. Those are, of course, dependent on other issues.

Remember that this strikes deeply at the hearts of those who have not proven good stewards of their servants. Consider that the emancipation order released only those slaves who had been born from long generations of slaves. Obviously, people who have grown up within the Empire and know nothing else. Those, and the highly educated as well as theologians. Which leaves hard labor such as mining as the mainstay of slave labor (they rarely keep slaves alive long enough to have long generations and they hardly qualify as highly educated).

Of the rest, why would they leave? To whit, I can provide my own story. On the order of the emancipation (my family being almost completely involved in theologian study and thus our slaves all counted as doing religious work), we took them in cloaked shuttles to the Minmatar Republic. We allowed them to witness what they wanted to see, wherever they wanted to see it, and then asked them where they would like to be dropped off.

Only two actually were dropped off anywhere but their former duty stations. One emigrated to the Minmatar Republic and the other returned to his duties after marrying someone he had met (bringing her back as well). They are no longer "slaves", I suppose. They are free to leave. They simply do not. They carry on as they always have, doing as they have always done. It seems to have appealed to them more than what they saw elsewhere.

Keep in mind, though, that being a bodyguard or cleaner in the House of Baracca might be what you would call "cushy". As far as slavery goes, we rarely treated them much different than close relatives. We grew up with them, took them into our church, and dealt with them bountifully. Being at the beck and call of your common Father or Sister Baracca was simply better than being at the whim of their tribes.

I imagine those who would most like to be free are not, in any way, affected by the emancipation directive. Highly educated slaves likely already have carved out substantial positions for themselves and those who work in theological fields really have no other place to practice the field they were educated for.

People wanting to remain slaves may seem counter-intuitive, but given the political climate outside the Empire and the relatively rigid society they were born into, is it really that surprising?

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#78 - 2013-09-01 09:02:50 UTC
Ayallah wrote:


The Amarrian economy is entirely built on the slave trade.

And if you think that someone would willingly be a slave you are delusional.



If you think that a small child would willingly go to bed on time, then you're probably delusional as well.

Does that mean that children should be allowed to decide when they go to bed?

You would also be delusional if you think that Minmatars with the wrong Voluval tattoo willingly go into exile or mutilate themselves.

So will you act against the Voluval?

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#79 - 2013-09-01 10:04:39 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Ayallah wrote:


The Amarrian economy is entirely built on the slave trade.

And if you think that someone would willingly be a slave you are delusional.



If you think that a small child would willingly go to bed on time, then you're probably delusional as well.

Does that mean that children should be allowed to decide when they go to bed?

You would also be delusional if you think that Minmatars with the wrong Voluval tattoo willingly go into exile or mutilate themselves.

So will you act against the Voluval?


I find this statement confusing.

Are you at the same time implying that Minmatars with the wrong Voluval tattoo that do not want to go into exile or mutilate themselves follow the same analogy and are like children that do not go willingly to bed on time ?
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#80 - 2013-09-01 15:07:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Lyn Farel wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Ayallah wrote:


The Amarrian economy is entirely built on the slave trade.

And if you think that someone would willingly be a slave you are delusional.



If you think that a small child would willingly go to bed on time, then you're probably delusional as well.

Does that mean that children should be allowed to decide when they go to bed?

You would also be delusional if you think that Minmatars with the wrong Voluval tattoo willingly go into exile or mutilate themselves.

So will you act against the Voluval?


I find this statement confusing.

Are you at the same time implying that Minmatars with the wrong Voluval tattoo that do not want to go into exile or mutilate themselves follow the same analogy and are like children that do not go willingly to bed on time ?


You always were easily confused.

They were two separate points.

The first was that sometimes you have to make people do things they don't like for their own good.

The second was that any Minmatar who disagrees with the first point should perhaps get their own house in order before pointing their finger at others.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori