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Adapt Freighter and Jump Freighter

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#461 - 2013-08-31 19:33:10 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Because in RL if a freighter sees a bunch of small boats assembling they call one of the navy fleets patrolling nearby and if those small boats don't have a good reason or are armed they get warned and then wtfpwned. In EvE the Navy just sits there and even let's the pirates scoop the loot. Completely different.

Freighter pilots are capable of calling the navy for support as long as it they don't expect support from an NPC faction navy, just like RL.

That's true however it then becomes more profitable to use another ship solo making the freighter useless. High sec is supposed to be relatively safe not more dangerous then null which it is for freighters.



In some respects highsec is quite a bit more dangerous than anywhere else.

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#462 - 2013-08-31 19:34:05 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
Conclusion:

Obviously, if i walk through the bronx in an expensive armani suite,
with a golden rolex on my wrist for everybody to see ...

... then it's totally not my fault when i get killed for that.


I know, real life analogies are bad ... but this one fits almost every time.



I 100% agree with you.

Many people don't though, they would claim that you are "blaming the victim" in this politically correct world of professional victimhood. I work in a field where I deal with victims of such events daily and I want to shake my head all the time.

In one case, on guy was mad at me and people in my line of work because "you guys are never around when we need you".....as if it were somehow our fault that he decided to leave a brand new laptop AND a smaller tablet plus he new iphone on the front seat (in plain view, he didn't even have tinted windows) of an unlocked car in a high crime neighborhood while he shopped.


Well to be fair, blaming the victim in reality isn't always correct (**** victims, mass shooting victims, suicide bomber victims all come to mind).

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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#463 - 2013-08-31 19:34:44 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:


I was going to make my personal project a highsec wide ban on "Illegal Orca's", but I might put that on hold to randomly suicide gank the changed haulers for a couple of weeks.


This will be lol-worthy.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#464 - 2013-08-31 19:36:11 UTC
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:
We don't.


In that case then, I guess I would be upset if CCP wasted their time changing things that don't need changing instead of continuing with balancing ships that do actually need rebalancing.


Balancing ships that need it? Hell, not only that...how about a updated drone UI? I could name a thousand things, and I have just now entered my third year. But no...we must cater to those who buy expensive things and then do not know how to use them. Instead, they run to GD crying, when the reality is they shouldn't have undocked it if they cannot get behind a game called Everyone vs. Everyone.



I invite you to read Jester's Trek. Notably, his current 3 day sohourn to the CCP CSM summit.

Has some pretty good information there.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#465 - 2013-08-31 19:41:32 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game?


Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes?


Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any.



Code Logistics?

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#466 - 2013-08-31 19:48:07 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Still waiting for an answer from Infinity Ziona on how likely a naval anti piracy operation being close to a ship threatened by pirates is, in an area that's 67% of the size of Europe.



Not to speak for that person, but most acts of piracy aren't done way out in true open water.

2 main reasons come to mind (even though I admittedly do not truly know) and that would be

1. Open water. That's a lot of ocean, just like in Eve and with jumpgates, you have "lanes" which would give you a better target rich environment. Shallower areas would give way to smoother waters for such tactics that "pirates" employ since more often than not, since land brings it's own levels of cover and ability to hide.

2. Ports. No matter where in the Ocean that liner may be, it lands at a port, or launches from a port. Much like stations, trade hubs, pos's and jump gates, give an indication of where that freighter would be vulnerable.

I do not really see any suicide gank squads scanning open systems for freighters...

Sorry for interrupting, but seeing you post your intent to wait for someone else to respond was driving me nuts.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#467 - 2013-08-31 19:51:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
[

Quote:
Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec.
This is already the case. The best way of surviving is to ensure that it's too costly for the gankers to attack you.

Quote:
They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.
No, they absolutely must not. The last time CCP tried to balance according to cost, we got Titans — a ship that causes balance problems to this day. They have since learned the single truth about ship balancing: cost is not a balancing factor, and requiring equal cost for a kill is as idiotic an idea as they come because it means that bigger is always better; that small ships have no reason to exist; and that there is no way for the little guy to ever beat the big guy. It only ever creates horrible gameplay without any semblance of balance.

You can use 0 ISK worth of ships to destroy any other ship in the game. This is as it should be.



That contradicts your answers. Or is that to be seen as an agreement from you?

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#468 - 2013-08-31 20:19:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Last I heard Goons were at 500 billion in losses for around 5 trillion in profits from their high sec ganking. Slight imbalance there.
A 10:1 ROI for a carefully chosen application of ships and skills? Seems fairly reasonable.
Then again, they don't indiscriminately gank freighters every 20 minutes, so they don't really qualify regardless.



Neither do mission blitzers do every and any mission that gets handed to them to do.

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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#469 - 2013-08-31 20:22:31 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


That contradicts your answers. Or is that to be seen as an agreement from you?


Noobships are free, and come armed. In sufficient numbers, they can be used to kill anything in the game, from other noobships to titans. Considering that cost is apparently now a balance factor, this makes the noobship the most OP and unbalanced item in the entire game.
Obunagawe
#470 - 2013-08-31 20:25:35 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


That contradicts your answers. Or is that to be seen as an agreement from you?


Noobships are free, and come armed. In sufficient numbers, they can be used to kill anything in the game, from other noobships to titans. Considering that cost is apparently now a balance factor, this makes the noobship the most OP and unbalanced item in the entire game.


You utter autist.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#471 - 2013-08-31 20:35:24 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:


The cargohold of a freighter would have to be nerfed by a certain percentage to make up for every low slot or rig slot that it gained. To haul iHubs & Station egg's the freighter pilot would have to fit cargohold expanders. Tippia did all of the math on this awhile back, he might post it if you ask nicely.



What about mids? Or specific sized modules for those technically not a capital freighter?

What about adding something instead of just taking away? There's plenty of battleship and capital modules that just dont fit to any ship and also have serious penalties when fitted to other ships not meant for those modules.

No need to have to change the hull itself.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#472 - 2013-08-31 20:37:09 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:


Then explain why a pilot who has had his combat capital ship reimbursed has to move it out of highsec as soon as possible?



Uhm, because CCP doesn't want them used in highsec?

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#473 - 2013-08-31 20:42:57 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Lugalbandak wrote:

well then tey can make it easy , all the mods you fit , except the ******* damn cargo expanders. thats was not hard was it?

edit: BATTLE CHARON WHOEIIIIII

How would you tank a Charon?
The base stats are, excluding resists :
Shield 6000 HP
Armour 20000 HP
Structure 106250 HP
CPU 1.15
PG 1.15

You can't have low slots, because that would allow a cargo expander, which in turn allows the transport of packaged capships in highsec, it's unreasonable of you to expect CCP to do the work to prevent the fitting of a cargo expander to 1 class of ship. No low slots means no armour tank, and no Damage Control.

So you're left with mid slots, 6000 base HP on shield puts it somewhere between the base stats of a shield tanking BC and BS, however there's not enough CPU or PG to fit anything there.

So basically what you're asking for is for CCP to not balance, but completely rework freighters. All because people insist on stuffing the things to the brim, going afk, and autopiloting though chokepoint systems that are renowned for being gank alley.

I think that's somewhat unreasonable.


Or add the caveat to the cargo expander mod "cannot be fit to .X. ships".

Or how about a drone bay, or about make drones be able to rep yourself (which I think would add more benefit than hurt all around as a blanket change to drones) or how about a change to the balancing of freighters (capital class?) that they do not get a benefit from cargo expanders.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#474 - 2013-08-31 20:45:35 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Skydell wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:


They already did that in the first place to prevent freighters from hauling them in the first time.


And they can do it again.
Freighters are used to pad killboard ISK values. They don't do their job anymore.


Because a green killboard makes you awesome, just ask -a-



I don't think we are allowed to talk back to them =/

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#475 - 2013-08-31 20:53:42 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Eram Fidard wrote:
Since hi-sec is so big, has so many people in it -and is (according to the whiners) 95% filled with gankers and griefers- I can't help but wonder where are the white knights?

Seems pretty easy to whine nonsensically about things like RL navies and EHP ratios while completely ignoring personal responsibility, or teamwork, things gankers are comfortable with.

Much easier to post a thread, start an argument, than actually do something. You think RL navies and coast guards are full of NPCs who fulfill their responsibilities because of code? No, they are full of real people who are there because they want to make a real difference.

If gankers are so prevalent, you should be able to provide content for dozens or hundreds of white knight types, patrolling the space lanes, ensuring evildoers get their just desserts (or some other polarized nonsense). Take some personal responsibility, would ya? Just for one moment, stop the flow of tears, adjust the whine down to a minimum, and use your brain. I've got a few amazing ideas perfectly suited for people looking to make hi-sec a 'safer' place; but if you're unwilling to use a webbing ship, a scout, or the smallest modicum of common sense, I'm willing to bet that is out of your reach.

Gankers=knowledgeable, connected people who organise together for a common goal

Freighter Victims=insular, unorganised, or ignorant players unwilling to work together or do anything to change their circumstance (and the occasional unlucky bastard I'm sure =)

Teamwork and collective effort is an unfamiliar concept to some people.


That's a good point. If teamwork and collective effort are so important to this game, why are all the ships single pilot?

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#476 - 2013-08-31 20:55:59 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be.

citation needed.

ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance.

Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.



At it's role maybe. But I doubt across the board.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#477 - 2013-08-31 20:58:12 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Eram Fidard wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be.

citation needed.

ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance.

Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.


Too delusional. Can't tell if troll.

If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE.



Did you know the venture and the iteron are both industrials, and roughly cost the same amount? Read the ship descriptions of both. You'll learn there is quite a bit of difference between the 2 ships. And neither can do each others' roles the same.

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Dave Stark
#478 - 2013-08-31 21:19:53 UTC
i go out for dinner and you guys fill 4 pages. good job.

and oh **** murk is posting, this is going nowhere good.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#479 - 2013-08-31 21:20:39 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Skydell wrote:
I know what I am talking about and you can kiss my ass. I'm right.


No you don't, going by the information you've supplied.


What parts were wrong, bucket mouth?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#480 - 2013-08-31 21:21:04 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game?


Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes?


Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any.



Code Logistics?


They don't even indiscriminately gank a barge every 20 minutes.

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