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Adapt Freighter and Jump Freighter

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#261 - 2013-08-31 14:45:43 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.

If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would?
If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?

Thats balance based on cost.
No, that's just ROI. In fact, the balance hasn't changed at all there, which just highlights that the difference in cost in not a factor.

Balance based on cost is when costing 10× more inherently means that it is 10× better (or reasonably close to it).

In my example if developers wanted to increase or decrease ganking would my first scenario decrease ganking?

Would my second scenario increase ganking?

Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking?


Cost does not factor in to ship balance, which was the original point made. Twisting it's meaning does not make you correct.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#262 - 2013-08-31 14:47:26 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it.

Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal?


I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#263 - 2013-08-31 14:48:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
In my example if developers wanted to increase or decrease ganking would my first scenario decrease ganking?
Would my second scenario increase ganking?
In either of your scenarios, the balance wouldn't change because the value of both the ships (on both sides) and the cargo would vary along with the build changes. So you'd still be talking about a 2x ISK ship being blown up by 0.5x ISK worth of ships, and we'd be talking about vastly different cargo compositions.

Quote:
Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking?
I'm still saying that cost is not a factor in balance because balance is how ships fare against each other. What you're talking about is still a change in ROI, not balance.

S Byerley wrote:
I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game.
No, it does not follow because just because cost isn't a balancing factor doesn't mean that all ships and items are meant to have the same availability and utility.
Dave Stark
#264 - 2013-08-31 14:49:06 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it.

Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal?


I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost.


cost not being a balancing factor doesn't mean everything should cost the game, however you're obviously trolling due the fact that it's all you have left after every terrible point of yours has been refuted, so i'm not sure why i'm pointing it out.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#265 - 2013-08-31 14:49:13 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it.

Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal?


I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost.


Could you elaborate on why the game should be streamlined in such a way?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#266 - 2013-08-31 14:49:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
The math is simple

If the potential value of your cargo > the value of the ships required to take your cargo from you, then you have a good chance of exploding and losing your cargo.

Conversely
If the value of the ships required to take your cargo from you > the potential value of your cargo, then you're unlikely to explode, unless you've really annoyed someone.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Din Chao
#267 - 2013-08-31 14:52:20 UTC
ITT: Ganking is purely for the purpose of short-term, instant profit. There is no meta-game here. Move along.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#268 - 2013-08-31 14:53:11 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking?


yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are.

Lmao. So cost is not a balancing factor but if theres not enough loot to justify the cost you won't gank it. Got it :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#269 - 2013-08-31 14:55:25 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.

If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would?
If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?

Thats balance based on cost.
No, that's just ROI. In fact, the balance hasn't changed at all there, which just highlights that the difference in cost in not a factor.

Balance based on cost is when costing 10× more inherently means that it is 10× better (or reasonably close to it).

In my example if developers wanted to increase or decrease ganking would my first scenario decrease ganking?

Would my second scenario increase ganking?

Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking?


Cost does not factor in to ship balance, which was the original point made. Twisting it's meaning does not make you correct.

This thread is about ganking. What's being twisted here :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#270 - 2013-08-31 14:55:36 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking?


yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are.

Lmao. So cost is not a balancing factor but if theres not enough loot to justify the cost you won't gank it. Got it :)

Profitability of a gank != balance.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#271 - 2013-08-31 14:56:08 UTC  |  Edited by: S Byerley
Mallak Azaria wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it.

Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal?


I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost.


Could you elaborate on why the game should be streamlined in such a way?


Tiericide mate.

What purpose does cost serve?

Dave Stark wrote:
however you're obviously trolling due the fact that it's all you have left after every terrible point of yours has been refuted, so i'm not sure why i'm pointing it out.


No reasoning with people who think they deserve some of the highest income in the game for high sec ganking in destroyers.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#272 - 2013-08-31 14:57:52 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it.

Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal?


I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost.


Could you elaborate on why the game should be streamlined in such a way?


Tiericide mate.

What purpose does cost serve?


I like how you reverted to trolling after we refuted all of your hilariously incorrect arguments.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#273 - 2013-08-31 14:58:13 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lmao. So cost is not a balancing factor but if theres not enough loot to justify the cost you won't gank it. Got it :)
So when CCP balance ships, they not only balance them based on the cost of the hulls, but also on the value of the cargo the hull may or may not be carrying. Got it.

Oh god.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#274 - 2013-08-31 14:59:12 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
I like how you reverted to trolling after we refuted all of your hilariously incorrect arguments.


You appear to not want to answer the question. What purpose does cost serve in the game?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#275 - 2013-08-31 14:59:36 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking?


yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are.

Lmao. So cost is not a balancing factor but if theres not enough loot to justify the cost you won't gank it. Got it :)

Profitability of a gank != balance.

I just clearly demonstrated, with your help (thank you) that in regards to ganking cost is a balancing factor. You said so yourself. Are you calling you a liar?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Dave Stark
#276 - 2013-08-31 15:00:33 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking?


yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are.

Lmao. So cost is not a balancing factor but if theres not enough loot to justify the cost you won't gank it. Got it :)


good, now you can stop pretending cost has any influence on ship balance.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#277 - 2013-08-31 15:00:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Infinity Ziona wrote:

I just clearly demonstrated, with your help (thank you) that in regards to ganking cost is a balancing factor. You said so yourself. Are you calling you a liar?

Where?

You've been prattling on about how cost is a factor in ship balance, the profitability of a gank has absolutely f' all to do with ship balance.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#278 - 2013-08-31 15:01:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
I like how you reverted to trolling after we refuted all of your hilariously incorrect arguments.


You appear to not want to answer the question. What purpose does cost serve in the game?


I'm still waiting for you to answer the question I asked you 10 pages ago. At least I'm giving your question some recognition though.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Dave Stark
#279 - 2013-08-31 15:01:42 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
I like how you reverted to trolling after we refuted all of your hilariously incorrect arguments.


You appear to not want to answer the question. What purpose does cost serve in the game?


it's pretty much the basis of the economy, and due to the economy being player driven the situation where everything costs the same simply won't exist.
Dave Stark
#280 - 2013-08-31 15:04:25 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
No reasoning with people who think they deserve some of the highest income in the game for high sec ganking in destroyers.


i don't think any one has stated that they think they deserve some of the highest income in the game; and if we did there are plenty of activities which provide more isk/hour, cost less to participate in, and are far more reliable and stable than suicide ganking.

but feel free to keep posting without making a legitimate point about anything related to the topic.