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Adapt Freighter and Jump Freighter

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#241 - 2013-08-31 14:24:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost.

Cost is only one factor, lock time, damage output, training time etc are others.

To say that cost is the reason people use destroyers for ganking is dishonest, other factors are in play. Other ships are also used, the Brutix is quite popular, so is the Tornado.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
IDGAD
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2013-08-31 14:24:35 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost.


so why aren't people ganking in frigates?

Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost.


so clearly; cost isn't a balancing factor if they do equal dps without equal cost.


Anyone ganking in a cruiser is pretty stupid. Yes you can do it, but the only possible reason you would do it is if you refer to my previous post. It's only viable if you KNOW you can only gank with the extra DPS a cruiser gets over a dessie and are FORCED to use a cruiser because you don't have enough players to use dessies, but have more players than enough then would be required for tornados.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2013-08-31 14:25:12 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost.


so why aren't people ganking in frigates?

Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost.


so clearly; cost isn't a balancing factor if they do equal dps without equal cost.

Are you being serious lol? When CCP released freighters it was cost prohibitive to gank them unless they were a piñata. You think that was accidental?

If people are using Dessies because theyre cost effective rather than destroyers than they're selecting them based on COST ffs.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#244 - 2013-08-31 14:27:32 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:


If people are using Dessies because theyre cost effective rather than destroyers than they're selecting them based on COST ffs.


This is forum gold.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Dave Stark
#245 - 2013-08-31 14:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost.


so why aren't people ganking in frigates?

Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost.


so clearly; cost isn't a balancing factor if they do equal dps without equal cost.

Are you being serious lol? When CCP released freighters it was cost prohibitive to gank them unless they were a piñata. You think that was accidental?

If people are using Dessies because theyre cost effective rather than destroyers than they're selecting them based on COST ffs.


yes i'm being serious. if 2 ships do the same thing, but one costs more than another then clearly cost isn't a balancing factor is it?

smaller ships will always be more cost effective; ccp have stated several times that for a linear increase in performance you pay an exponential cost in price.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#246 - 2013-08-31 14:29:02 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
When CCP released freighters it was cost prohibitive to gank them unless they were a piñata.
They still are. The problem is that people have come to believe that 5bn ≠ piñata…
Jim Era
#247 - 2013-08-31 14:29:18 UTC
I think its about time I put the Wat™ in here

Wat™
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#248 - 2013-08-31 14:29:50 UTC
I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.

If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would?

If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?

Thats balance based on cost. If cost to gank increases ganks decrease lol.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#249 - 2013-08-31 14:30:42 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


If people are using Dessies because theyre cost effective rather than destroyers than they're selecting them based on COST ffs.


This is forum gold.

Lol you know what I mean.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#250 - 2013-08-31 14:31:40 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Thats balance based on cost.

It isn't.

Oh god.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#251 - 2013-08-31 14:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE.

Maller — Built cost: ~8M → Survivability: annoyingly high → Gankability: none, it's a trap!
Crow — Build cost: ~11M → Survivability: very low → Gankability: #&%€# sit still you bastard!
Iteron V — Build cost: ~2M → Survivability: mediocre → Gankability: high.

R²: Not high… Blink

Procurer build cost = approx 24M isk - Survivability : High - very high depending on fit, Gankabilty : Bait
Mackinaw build cost = approx 201M isk - Survivability : Very low - medium depending on fit, Gankabilty : High

Both ships do the same job, 1 costs nearly 10x as much to build.

Build cost != Survivability as illustrated by both Tippia's examples and my own.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#252 - 2013-08-31 14:33:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
When CCP released freighters it was cost prohibitive to gank them unless they were a piñata.
They still are. The problem is that people have come to believe that 5bn ≠ piñata…

No Tippia, you know as well as I do that when freighters were released the only feasible way of profitably ganking one was an expensive battleship fleet. Now you can do it with the second smallest least expensive low skill ship in the game.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Dave Stark
#253 - 2013-08-31 14:34:26 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
If cost to gank increases ganks decrease lol.


actually; the cost is irrelevant.

know what'd lower the amount of ganks? less people undocking with a cargo hold full of shiny stuff.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#254 - 2013-08-31 14:34:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.

If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would?
If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?

Thats balance based on cost.
No, that's just ROI. In fact, the balance hasn't changed at all there, which just highlights that the difference in cost in not a factor.

Balance based on cost is when costing 10× more inherently means that it is 10× better (or reasonably close to it).

Quote:
No Tippia, you know as well as I do that when freighters were released the only feasible way of profitably ganking one was an expensive battleship fleet.
…or battlecruisers, or, really, anything with a high enough DPS per unit. Like now, the profitability was determined by the cargo more than anything, and the change there is that cargo hauls have become more valuable.

The only shift in balance is that destroyers have been made not-useless, so they have joined the ranks of having high enough DPS per unit, and that we now have attack BCs, which provide better damage output than the rusty old BSes ever did. But that's something entirely separate from the prices on both cargo and ships.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#255 - 2013-08-31 14:35:04 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
yes i'm being serious. if 2 ships do the same thing, but one costs more than another then clearly cost isn't a balancing factor is it?


I know it's hard to wrap one's head around, but some developers balance based on two or even THREE factors.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#256 - 2013-08-31 14:37:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Balance based on cost is when costing 10× more inherently means that it is 10× better (or reasonably close to it).


[citation needed]

I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it.
Dave Stark
#257 - 2013-08-31 14:37:43 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
yes i'm being serious. if 2 ships do the same thing, but one costs more than another then clearly cost isn't a balancing factor is it?


I know it's hard to wrap one's head around, but some developers balance based on two or even THREE factors.


and cost isn't one of them.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#258 - 2013-08-31 14:42:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.

If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would?
If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?

Thats balance based on cost.
No, that's just ROI. In fact, the balance hasn't changed at all there, which just highlights that the difference in cost in not a factor.

Balance based on cost is when costing 10× more inherently means that it is 10× better (or reasonably close to it).

In my example if developers wanted to increase or decrease ganking would my first scenario decrease ganking?

Would my second scenario increase ganking?

Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#259 - 2013-08-31 14:44:25 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it.

Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal?

Oh god.
Dave Stark
#260 - 2013-08-31 14:45:26 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking?


yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are.