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Adapt Freighter and Jump Freighter

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#221 - 2013-08-31 13:49:32 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be.

citation needed.

ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance.

Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Dave Stark
#222 - 2013-08-31 13:50:32 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be.

citation needed.

ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance.

Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.


so you're making things up with no proof to back up your claims? sure thing.

again, price isn't a balancing factor.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#223 - 2013-08-31 13:50:35 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Traedar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship?


Because the 1 ship is designed to be unable to defend itself and be unable to run away. And because it can be kept from warping easily with no risk.

Also because the 15 ships required cost a few hundred millions and the 1 ship costs 6 billion. That's if you fit the 15 ships expensively, I'm guessing many freighter gankings are much cheaper (meta mods and faction ammo).

Suicide ganking freighters in high sec, with their slowness, is probably the most low risk ganking in the game. You have next to forever to scan the thing as it aligns, and even if it's not AFK you can easily organize your ganking buddies since it is so slow in warp. Nevermind if he's autopiloting.

With smaller ship classes getting damage buffs it probably makes sense to buff freighter EHP.


Its a multiplayer pvp game. You consent to the risk of PVP the moment you undock. If you lose 1v15, then that is your fault.
If you are 2v15, then chances of your survival greatly increase. It is highsec, not perfectsec.

You can reliably warp to 0 so one side of the gate is _very_ safe, on the other side, their bumper is not going to be on top of your freighter (on average he'll be several kms away), and you can own webs that can reach half across the gate sphere, and you get to choose when you freighter uncloaks - ie you can be within webrange at the instant your freighter appears.

By webbing your freighter its isk/hr picks up, ie the webber account is not an entirely dead overhead account either.



Common sense, on my forums??!?!?

rage.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#224 - 2013-08-31 13:51:17 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be.

citation needed.

ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance.

Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.


Too delusional. Can't tell if troll.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#225 - 2013-08-31 13:54:38 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Too delusional. Can't tell if troll.
It's an Infinity post, assume ill-informed troll until proved otherwise.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#226 - 2013-08-31 13:55:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Eram Fidard
anyone confirm/deny cost is and always was a balancing factor in eve

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#227 - 2013-08-31 13:58:10 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be.

citation needed.

ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance.

Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.


The Hulk costs more to produce than the Mackinaw, has far less survivability & performs only marginally better at it's task. You are again taking the statements of one CCP guy from nearly a decade ago & believing them to be more valid than the Devs who are working on EVE now.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#228 - 2013-08-31 14:07:16 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.

You're confusing factor and product.

No, cost is not a factor in balance. It can never adjust an imbalance. Something that is crap remains crap no matter how cheap it is. Something that is overpowered remains overpowered no matter how expensive it is. Players will always grind the money required to get the overpowered stuff and will never waste money on junk. Forgetting this simple fact is how Titans came about: it was “ok” that they were massively OP because, hey, they cost so much that there would never be that many of them… except that cost is not a factor in balance, so that high cost didn't stop them from being common as clovers.

What you're talking about is setting a cost or availability that is reasonable compared to how the ship is balanced. Balance determines cost, not the other way around.

On top of this, having learnt the lesson with titans, CCP has adopted a cost design where marginal improvements in ability come at exponential increases in cost or rarity, and that “ability” does not really cross roles. Cruisers and barges do not exist on the same ability scale, so even though both are massively better than the other, depending on what you're comparing, there is no real connection between how much they cost.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#229 - 2013-08-31 14:11:48 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be.

citation needed.

ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance.

Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.


Too delusional. Can't tell if troll.

If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#230 - 2013-08-31 14:14:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.

You're confusing factor and product.

No, cost is not a factor in balance. It can never adjust an imbalance. Something that is crap remains crap no matter how cheap it is. Something that is overpowered remains overpowered no matter how expensive it is. Players will always grind the money required to get the overpowered stuff and will never waste money on junk. Forgetting this simple fact is how Titans came about: it was “ok” that they were massively OP because, hey, they cost so much that there would never be that many of them… except that cost is not a factor in balance, so that high cost didn't stop them from being common as clovers.

What you're talking about is setting a cost or availability that is reasonable compared to how the ship is balanced. Balance determines cost, not the other way around.

On top of this, having learnt the lesson with titans, CCP has adopted a cost design where marginal improvements in ability come at exponential increases in cost or rarity, and that “ability” does not really cross roles. Cruisers and barges do not exist on the same ability scale, so even though both are massively better than the other, depending on what you're comparing, there is no real connection between how much they cost.

There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Dave Stark
#231 - 2013-08-31 14:14:16 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Eram Fidard wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be.

citation needed.

ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance.

Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.


Too delusional. Can't tell if troll.

If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE.


nobody fails to see it; we're just pointing it out that cost isn't a balancing factor.
IDGAD
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#232 - 2013-08-31 14:16:45 UTC  |  Edited by: IDGAD
Mallak Azaria wrote:
If killing freighters in highsec is so easy, why aren't more people doing it (no one has actually answered this yet). Freighters & JF's do have the ability to survive a suicide gank attempt but a good majority of the pilots would rather autopilot their giant cargohold through highsec & complain when the inevitable happens.

You claim that there is no risk for suicide gankers. This is wrong on so many levels.

Edit: Isk-tanking is a horrible idea by the way.


The largest deterrent for suicide gankers is not actually concord, it's other corps that have WAY more time than you do that will constantly watch for suicide gankers. These groups will find and kill your own freighter that loots because as soon as the freighter loots, it can be shot. If not for these opportunists, freighter ganking could be done with about 200 mill in catalysts easily. So funny enough, a broken ship (the freighter) became a balanced one due to savvy players who know how to make a quick buck lol
Dave Stark
#233 - 2013-08-31 14:17:35 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost.


so why aren't people ganking in frigates?
IDGAD
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2013-08-31 14:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: IDGAD
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost.


so why aren't people ganking in frigates?


Because destroyers offer better DPS per cost than frigates.

You can get twice the damage in a dessie than you can in a frig, and they are not that much more expensive. You do not fully fit a gank dessie, you just use meta/T1 damage mods, and usually meta guns with caldari navy antimatter. You get balls close to the freighter and gank it. Dessies are the best ships to gank with IF you can get enough people to get together and use them. It takes quite a few of them, and that is why some smaller groups use tornados and such for ganking. Goons when they did their massive freighter ganks used dessies because if you have so many players, any other ship is ******** to use.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#235 - 2013-08-31 14:19:12 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost.
People do gank in cruisers.

Oh god.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#236 - 2013-08-31 14:19:21 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost.


so why aren't people ganking in frigates?

Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Dave Stark
#237 - 2013-08-31 14:19:25 UTC
IDGAD wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost.


so why aren't people ganking in frigates?


Because destroyers offer better DPS per cost than frigates.


so it's dps, not cost.

got it.
Dave Stark
#238 - 2013-08-31 14:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost.


so why aren't people ganking in frigates?

Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost.


i have to edit this post because i just went and did some fact checking. a catalyst doesn't do the same dps as a thorax. you're wrong.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#239 - 2013-08-31 14:22:22 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE.

Maller — Built cost: ~8M → Survivability: annoyingly high → Gankability: none, it's a trap!
Crow — Build cost: ~11M → Survivability: very low → Gankability: #&%€# sit still you bastard!
Iteron V — Build cost: ~2M → Survivability: mediocre → Gankability: high.

R²: Not high… Blink
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#240 - 2013-08-31 14:23:26 UTC
IDGAD wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
If killing freighters in highsec is so easy, why aren't more people doing it (no one has actually answered this yet). Freighters & JF's do have the ability to survive a suicide gank attempt but a good majority of the pilots would rather autopilot their giant cargohold through highsec & complain when the inevitable happens.

You claim that there is no risk for suicide gankers. This is wrong on so many levels.

Edit: Isk-tanking is a horrible idea by the way.


The largest deterrent for suicide gankers is not actually concord, it's other corps that have WAY more time than you do that will constantly watch for suicide gankers. These groups will find and kill your own freighter that loots because as soon as the freighter loots, it can be shot. If not for these opportunists, freighter ganking could be done with about 200 mill in catalysts easily. So funny enough, a broken ship (the freighter) became a balanced one due to savvy players who know how to make a quick buck lol


I already know these thing because, you know, I actually gank freighters. I also know that with enough people logging in it costs about 60m to gank a freighter.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.