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A Real Criticism of CCP
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Renault T'Bonin
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-08-30 22:38:18 UTC
Yup, I'm posting anonymously. Make of that what you will.

I own multiple characters, and I'm a fairly rich industrialist in the game. I've headed an alliance, held sov, know how to fight, and date back to 2004.

Recently returned to the game to find a more or less all out war on industrialists. I'm going to state my case, understanding I will be flamed.

Mining, should not be risk free. Mining in empire should not be risk free.

But let's look at this scenario:

A miner gets ganked in a hulk (or covetor). He's ganked by an alt corp or large corp. War is declared within seconds of the successful gank.

*poof*- alt corp gankers are offline for the duration.

Large corp gankers, run back to 0.0 or low sec.

Even kill rights do not mitigate. There is no consequence. Security status loss is a joke for someone willing to suicide (and it's most likely an alt).

Industry types can work around this. Fly only insured covetors, keep 500m or less in my freighter, and use intensive scouting. Ok we get it... no problem.

But when the inevitable happens... we can't fight back. The targets are either NPC corps, stealthy alt corps, or full out alliance connected corporations. Even in corps of hundreds of people... we cannot retaliate. The perpetrators come to empire space specifically to hassle miners, then leave.

And WE want to retaliate! But keeping an alt corp logged off for a month is not retaliation. Declaring war against a 0.0 alliance is not retaliation- the alliance has a tactical advantage in their own space.... a 100 man empire corp is not going to successfully jump all the way into 0.0 and engage a sov holding alliance. Not happening.

While Eve isn't fair... this is one area that needs balance.

So here's what I do not propose:

1. Do not increase the tank on mining ships.

2. Do not speed up Concord.

3. Do not make industry easier.

Here's what I do propose:

1. Have real consequences for criminal acts which force the criminals to face real retaliation. People who play Eve whine all the time about how "Carebears don't want to fight". But they do want to fight! Please make it possible. Not just a little sec status loss and LOL's for the gankers. The current mechanics allow a run and hide scenario which is detrimental to the game.

Most of us into industry, in a serious sense, know how to fight, can fight, and are willing to do so. But we have no targets. We get hit... and buy another ship. We have a situation where an attack is made, and the attackers are shielded by location, or logoff.

It's a serious mechanics issue. And user accounts are being closed because of it- especially newer players. Those of us who have been around since before battleships, will probably deal with the situation. And it's to my advantage if CCP does nothing- I'll make more ISK.

But from a game mechanics standpoint, from the standpoint of new players, it's a real problem especially for growth of the game.
Wingmate
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-08-30 22:41:19 UTC
b-b-but, you're an industrialist! you're supposed to whine and cry and use poor grammar! you're not allowed to have REASONABLE thoughts! you're a bot or something!

i make spreadsheets for pretty cheap. contact me for more info.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=197433
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-08-30 22:45:36 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Not my fault all the others are cowards or noobs. :p

Removed some profanity -ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-08-30 22:48:10 UTC
You know covetors are prime gank targets right? If you fly a skiff or procurer with a tank, most people won't bother you unless they hate you in particular.

Though I know someone who ganked a skiff so show it could be done.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Renault T'Bonin
Doomheim
#5 - 2013-08-30 22:52:46 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
You know covetors are prime gank targets right? If you fly a skiff or procurer with a tank, most people won't bother you unless they hate you in particular.

Though I know someone who ganked a skiff so show it could be done.


Yup... but they can be insured at a reasonable level, give decent yield with high skills, and I can build more.

As has been said in other threads, there are ways for alert pilots to avoid being ganked- perhaps at a 50/50 success rate.

But As I said.. the gank is not the problem.
Rengerel en Distel
#6 - 2013-08-30 22:56:22 UTC
They should enforce the -10s can't enter 1.0 system. You shouldn't be able to board a ship you're not supposed to even enter. They should enforce punishment on the "throwaway" gank alt.

I doubt they will though, because the miners that quit because of being ganked aren't a large enough population to worry the money guys that drive what gets done.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Ressiv
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-08-30 22:57:05 UTC
Renault T'Bonin wrote:
stuff


Please tell me how forcing industrialists to gtfo of h-sec and work together with pew-pew buddies in order to provide their content is bad for EVE ?
Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
#8 - 2013-08-30 22:57:07 UTC
Concord could turn off the ganker's modules and scram them instead of killing them for as long as the log-off timer lasts, that way you can have an easy kill after you came back with any ship with at least 1 gun on it.. And in case they leave their ship, the ship is blown up (without insurance payout ofc) by concord and the pod is scrammed instead for you to kill it... At least it's more of a revenge that way Lol

View real-time damage statistics in-game

>EVE Live DPS Graph application forum thread

>iciclesoft.com
Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-08-30 23:02:48 UTC
Renault T'Bonin wrote:

A miner gets ganked in a hulk (or covetor). He's ganked by an alt corp or large corp. War is declared within seconds of the successful gank.

*poof*- alt corp gankers are offline for the duration.


Yes, wardecs shouldn't be so trivial to evade. Don't blame gankers for that.

Quote:

Large corp gankers, run back to 0.0 or low sec.


And? Nobody is gonna call a CTA to stop you from killing a ganker.

Quote:

But when the inevitable happens... we can't fight back. The targets are either NPC corps, stealthy alt corps, or full out alliance connected corporations. Even in corps of hundreds of people... we cannot retaliate. The perpetrators come to empire space specifically to hassle miners, then leave.


Again, you have the ability to leave highsec.

Quote:

And WE want to retaliate! But keeping an alt corp logged off for a month is not retaliation. Declaring war against a 0.0 alliance is not retaliation- the alliance has a tactical advantage in their own space.... a 100 man empire corp is not going to successfully jump all the way into 0.0 and engage a sov holding alliance. Not happening.


Form up a BLOPS gang, find a ganker, and tackle and murder them. You don't even need to pay wardec fees! Our enemies do it all the time, you can too.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#10 - 2013-08-30 23:04:40 UTC
Nullsec is scary.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Renault T'Bonin
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-08-30 23:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
Renault T'Bonin wrote:

A miner gets ganked in a hulk (or covetor). He's ganked by an alt corp or large corp. War is declared within seconds of the successful gank.

*poof*- alt corp gankers are offline for the duration.


Yes, wardecs shouldn't be so trivial to evade. Don't blame gankers for that.

Quote:

Large corp gankers, run back to 0.0 or low sec.


And? Nobody is gonna call a CTA to stop you from killing a ganker.

Quote:

But when the inevitable happens... we can't fight back. The targets are either NPC corps, stealthy alt corps, or full out alliance connected corporations. Even in corps of hundreds of people... we cannot retaliate. The perpetrators come to empire space specifically to hassle miners, then leave.


Again, you have the ability to leave highsec.

Quote:

And WE want to retaliate! But keeping an alt corp logged off for a month is not retaliation. Declaring war against a 0.0 alliance is not retaliation- the alliance has a tactical advantage in their own space.... a 100 man empire corp is not going to successfully jump all the way into 0.0 and engage a sov holding alliance. Not happening.


Form up a BLOPS gang, find a ganker, and tackle and murder them. You don't even need to pay wardec fees! Our enemies do it all the time, you can too.


Move to 0.0?
I'm not sure you understood my original post...

Edit: Removed personal attacks - ISD Suvetar
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#12 - 2013-08-30 23:14:44 UTC
If you move to nullsec you can just kill everyone you don't want in your systems. That solves the problem, right?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#13 - 2013-08-30 23:17:58 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
If you move to nullsec you can just kill everyone you don't want in your systems. That solves the problem, right?

Not if you're unable to kill hem, and instead are killed by everyone you don't want

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#14 - 2013-08-30 23:26:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Eraza
i think that's a point that's hard to escape, when someone tries to gank me while i'm travelling, i consider how i can retaliate, and..
nope
90% chance it's throwaway alt in a destroyer, the kill right is meaningless, i'll never find out who it really is, and that char will be biomass in a few days

in that regard, to the guy who disrupted our mining op recently, with the "mining permit" talk:
big thumbs up to you, it appears you are an actual character and not a temporary alt :)

how sad is it that that in itself warrants a compliment?
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#15 - 2013-08-30 23:47:16 UTC
Renault T'Bonin wrote:


As has been said in other threads, there are ways for alert pilots to avoid being ganked- perhaps at a 50/50 success rate.

Oh no... Well better than that. My mining alt hasn't been successfully ganked in well over a year. Situational awareness... Your best tank possible.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Reiisha
#16 - 2013-08-30 23:48:47 UTC
The amount of people not actually reading the first post is staggering.

For what it's worth, i agree that there need to be more consequences to random ganking. Or rather, there should be consequences in the first place.

Strangely enough, gankers and griefers are preaching 'eve is hard, deal with it', but when faced with possibl consequences for their currently ridiculously easy and safe playstyle they suddenly whine and cry about "carebears being catered to". I would tell them to look up the word 'hypocricy', but i think that would only result in their tiny brains being unable face the facts and instead resorting to random insults.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#17 - 2013-08-30 23:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Eraza
Reiisha wrote:
The amount of people not actually reading the first post is staggering.

For what it's worth, i agree that there need to be more consequences to random ganking. Or rather, there should be consequences in the first place.

Strangely enough, gankers and griefers are preaching 'eve is hard, deal with it', but when faced with possibl consequences for their currently ridiculously easy and safe playstyle they suddenly whine and cry about "carebears being catered to". I would tell them to look up the word 'hypocricy', but i think that would only result in their tiny brains being unable face the facts and instead resorting to random insults.


The Loud, The Proud, The Forum Warriors!
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#18 - 2013-08-31 00:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Azami Nevinyrall
******* reporting in...!

They block *******? What the **** is this ****!

...
Kharisa Tzestu
Eye Mock Holding Corporation
#19 - 2013-08-31 00:16:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kharisa Tzestu
Renault T'Bonin wrote:
Yup, I'm posting anonymously. Make of that what you will.

I own multiple characters, and I'm a fairly rich industrialist in the game. I've headed an alliance, held sov, know how to fight, and date back to 2004.

Recently returned to the game to find a more or less all out war on industrialists. I'm going to state my case, understanding I will be flamed.

Mining, should not be risk free. Mining in empire should not be risk free.

But let's look at this scenario:

A miner gets ganked in a hulk (or covetor). He's ganked by an alt corp or large corp. War is declared within seconds of the successful gank.

*poof*- alt corp gankers are offline for the duration.

Large corp gankers, run back to 0.0 or low sec.

Even kill rights do not mitigate. There is no consequence. Security status loss is a joke for someone willing to suicide (and it's most likely an alt).

Industry types can work around this. Fly only insured covetors, keep 500m or less in my freighter, and use intensive scouting. Ok we get it... no problem.

But when the inevitable happens... we can't fight back. The targets are either NPC corps, stealthy alt corps, or full out alliance connected corporations. Even in corps of hundreds of people... we cannot retaliate. The perpetrators come to empire space specifically to hassle miners, then leave.

And WE want to retaliate! But keeping an alt corp logged off for a month is not retaliation. Declaring war against a 0.0 alliance is not retaliation- the alliance has a tactical advantage in their own space.... a 100 man empire corp is not going to successfully jump all the way into 0.0 and engage a sov holding alliance. Not happening.

While Eve isn't fair... this is one area that needs balance.

So here's what I do not propose:

1. Do not increase the tank on mining ships.

2. Do not speed up Concord.

3. Do not make industry easier.

Here's what I do propose:

1. Have real consequences for criminal acts which force the criminals to face real retaliation. People who play Eve whine all the time about how "Carebears don't want to fight". But they do want to fight! Please make it possible. Not just a little sec status loss and LOL's for the gankers. The current mechanics allow a run and hide scenario which is detrimental to the game.

Most of us into industry, in a serious sense, know how to fight, can fight, and are willing to do so. But we have no targets. We get hit... and buy another ship. We have a situation where an attack is made, and the attackers are shielded by location, or logoff.

It's a serious mechanics issue. And user accounts are being closed because of it- especially newer players. Those of us who have been around since before battleships, will probably deal with the situation. And it's to my advantage if CCP does nothing- I'll make more ISK.

But from a game mechanics standpoint, from the standpoint of new players, it's a real problem especially for growth of the game.



I <3 you.

Will you let me bear you dozens of Warrior-Industrialist babies?
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#20 - 2013-08-31 00:23:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Seriosuly, I don't know why all these unsubbing new characters are getting ganked.

I play this game for 8 years, one of my characters has quite perfect mining skills (however I didn't mine a lot admittedly).

During this time, I've had at least 2 characters in highsec undocking 4/7 days a week for at least an hour.

That makes >3000 of combined characterr hours in highsec space (and that's a really concervative calculation).

Other than losing 2 +3 implants whilst afk podding to Jita one single time and one guy trying to kill my hulk back before the mining ship rebalance was implemented, but failed because I had a tank fitted, I have never had an issue with ganking. Not a single one of my tax evasion corps has ever been wardecced, none of my freighters ever got bumped one single time (at least that as fat as I'm aware of - I launch freighters before I go to work, usually).

Probably it's because I haul cheap crap in freighters and don't fit highsec mission ships with mods I wouldn't even fit on a Titan.

I seriously don't understand what you people are doing wrong.

Probably naming your characters isboxer1, isboxer2, isboxer3 etc... is.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
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