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Proposed change to trading

Author
Beelzebozo
Starless and BB
#1 - 2013-08-30 22:30:56 UTC
Hi, I'm coming back to EVE after a long layoff. I spent a lot of time trading before and there were a lot of problems with it being too tedious, namely with the 0.01 isk undercutting that people always do, often with the help of 3rd party software.

I'm just getting back into swing of trading and the same problem still exists. I have a simple solution. It's so simple that I'm probably beating a dead horse and many have suggested it before:

Make increase the undercut minimum from 0.01 isk to 1% of the lowest selling price of the item at the station. Sellers can then choose whether to actually affect a significant change in the low price of an item or he can sell at the same rate as the current lowest price seller, in which case his stack collapses with that seller's stack and the items are sold out of it at random to buyers.

For example say that 10MN Afterburner II is selling in a hub system for 2,000,000 ISK. The top three sellers are selling 3, 7, and 10 of them for 2,000,000... 1,999,999.99... and 1,999,999.98 isk respectively. Under the new system, those last two undercutters would be able to choose between selling for 2,000,000 or selling for 1,980,000.

If they all chose the former, the sale price would be 2,000,000 (in a single stack of 20 afterburners), and if a buyer purchases one of them, Seller A has a 3/20 chance of getting the sale, Seller B gets a 7/20 chance, et cetera. If they chose the latter, the lowest three prices would be 2,000,000, 1,980,000, and 1,960,000.


This system wouldn't be only beneficial to traders, it would foster greater competition in the market. Prices would reach equilibrium at a much faster rate, and thus the customers win. It would greatly increase the liquidity of all items, not to mention cleaning up the market interface (no more seeing 20 different sellers selling for nearly the same price).


Additionally, you could add the following features to such a system:

- Remove the 15 minute limit for changing market orders, if changes result in meaningful changes in the price of items, this is to be encouraged.

- Give notifications to players when they are no longer selling for the lowest price.

- Instead of having to tediously type in a number for the sale price, offer the option to either share the lowest price at the station or beat the price by 1%.

- Graduate the percentage minimum based on the absolute cost of the item. Perhaps the minimum is 2% for a 1,000,000 isk item and 0.5% for a 50,000,000 item. People selling T2 Battleships deal in razor thin margins so a 0.25% is much different than with a cheap item.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-08-30 22:35:38 UTC
You know there is a forum on EVE called "Features and Ideas" where people go to post their ideas...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=270

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#3 - 2013-08-30 22:36:36 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
You know there is a forum on EVE called "Features and Ideas" where people go to post their ideas...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=270

Doc Fury is going to pimp slap you for beating him to it Lol

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Reptail
#4 - 2013-08-30 22:38:39 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
You know there is a forum on EVE called "Features and Ideas" where people go to post their ideas...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=270

Doc Fury is going to pimp slap you for beating him to it Lol


aren't you, him, and some others the same person?

Ground Shiwer

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#5 - 2013-08-30 22:40:27 UTC
Reptail wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
You know there is a forum on EVE called "Features and Ideas" where people go to post their ideas...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=270

Doc Fury is going to pimp slap you for beating him to it Lol


aren't you, him, and some others the same person?

Altception, we're all alts of somebody else, probably mittens

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-08-30 22:49:14 UTC
Yes !

The obvious solution for a problem that never existed in the first place !
Let's break everything, because some weak minded people can't deal with how it works !


Thank you, thank you !


You have saved us all !
Thexx Littlechurch
Black Whole Industries
#7 - 2013-08-30 22:59:11 UTC
The 1% bid idea is neat and all, but no thanks. We have the best trading system and economy in gaming history and that's what keeps me in EVE. It isn't broken, so don't bother us with fixing it please.

I won't say the system is perfect as it is, but it's close enough. The 0.01isk bid is just a natural reflection of the bidding system, especially on trades with a very narrow margin.

If you think it's tedious then you're probably doing it wrong. (No offense)

Also the timer on bids is 5 minutes. Not 15.

I hate to sound like a turd about this, but there it is.
Beelzebozo
Starless and BB
#8 - 2013-08-30 22:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Beelzebozo
Sorry, I looked briefly for a features suggestion forum and I must have missed seeing it. If a mod can move this I'd appreciate it.



Solstice Project wrote:
Yes !

The obvious solution for a problem that never existed in the first place !
Let's break everything, because some weak minded people can't deal with how it works !


Thank you, thank you !


You have saved us all !


Could you elaborate please? I'm not sure how a system that encourages prices that don't change to react to market conditions is a system that is "working."


Thexx Littlechurch wrote:
The 1% bid idea is neat and all, but no thanks. We have the best trading system and economy in gaming history and that's what keeps me in EVE. It isn't broken, so don't bother us with fixing it please.

I won't say the system is perfect as it is, but it's close enough. The 0.01isk bid is just a natural reflection of the bidding system, especially on trades with a very narrow margin.

If you think it's tedious then you're probably doing it wrong. (No offense)

Also the timer on bids is 5 minutes. Not 15.

I hate to sound like a turd about this, but there it is.


I agree with it being the greatest market in gaming history but that doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage positive change to an already great system.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-08-30 23:10:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Caviar Liberta
Beelzebozo wrote:

Could you elaborate please? I'm not sure how a system that encourages prices that don't change to react to market conditions is a system that is "working."


Those that are serious about their market orders are actively watching their orders and adjusting them to market fluctuations.
Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
#10 - 2013-08-30 23:13:52 UTC
The market does change actually, usually not within 1 day but that's the way it should be. Set your Price History to > 3 months and have a look at the differences in price that this will show you... Patience is an important thing in EVE.

Also, if you mean bots by the third party software used to undercut by 0,01 ISK, simply report those people as using third party software to manipulate the client is prohibited. I wonder how you could be so sure about that though...

"Give notifications to players when they are no longer selling for the lowest price." - You are joking with this right? It would make me crazy, and then I'm only around 50 buy/sell orders at any given time.. Imagine someone with max buy/sell orders

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Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#11 - 2013-08-30 23:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Eraza
as annoying as it is to see someone selling 1000 of something undercut the guy selling 3, i think that's more human nature, and not something CCP can easily fix..

also annoying is prices with lots of 9's in them, but also i dont think that's something ccp can fix.. you know those people would just put the initial order at 19.999.999 instead of 20.000.000
Beelzebozo
Starless and BB
#12 - 2013-08-30 23:21:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Beelzebozo
Grauth Thorner wrote:
The market does change actually, usually not within 1 day but that's the way it should be. Set your Price History to > 3 months and have a look at the differences in price that this will show you... Patience is an important thing in EVE.

Also, if you mean bots by the third party software used to undercut by 0,01 ISK, simply report those people as using third party software to manipulate the client is prohibited. I wonder how you could be so sure about that though...

"Give notifications to players when they are no longer selling for the lowest price." - You are joking with this right? It would make me crazy, and then I'm only around 50 buy/sell orders at any given time.. Imagine someone with max buy/sell orders


No doubt the market is very robust. But that the typical change in price is 0.01 isk could negatively effect this. Who can say how much more responsive it would be if bidders weren't allowed to do this?

Re: 3rd party software, I'm not sure about it, I just know it exists and where 3rd party software exists there are people that use it. When the same person is 0.01ing you every 5 minutes for 18 straight hours you have to wonder.

Re: the notitifications, I'm not talking about an eve mail for each one or something absurd like that, how about just a color system where you look at your current orders and all of the ones at the lowest price for a station are green and the ones where you've been underbid are red? Or something like the transaction journal only applied to your market orders.



I'm kind of wondering why everyone is responding so negatively to this. It's just a suggestion to reduce the tedium of trading while driving prices down faster for everyone. Just tell me why its a bad idea and move on, why the ad hominem and accusations?
S'Way
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-08-30 23:27:47 UTC
Beelzebozo wrote:

I'm kind of wondering why everyone is responding so negatively to this. It's just a suggestion to reduce the tedium of trading while driving prices down faster for everyone. Just tell me why its a bad idea and move on, why the ad hominem and accusations?

Slight flaw with your plan is that it would break the economy - those of us with a couple of hundred billion isk (or more) and the desire to see things break could simply keep putting up market orders for everything at slightly above build prices forcing everyone who wants to undercut to take a loss (or lets us buy them out and reprocess / relist).
Effectively everything would come down to build price, except PLEX which with all the extra isk people save from buying items would inflate massively.
Beelzebozo
Starless and BB
#14 - 2013-08-30 23:34:35 UTC
S'Way wrote:
Beelzebozo wrote:

I'm kind of wondering why everyone is responding so negatively to this. It's just a suggestion to reduce the tedium of trading while driving prices down faster for everyone. Just tell me why its a bad idea and move on, why the ad hominem and accusations?

Slight flaw with your plan is that it would break the economy - those of us with a couple of hundred billion isk (or more) and the desire to see things break could simply keep putting up market orders for everything at slightly above build prices forcing everyone who wants to undercut to take a loss (or lets us buy them out and reprocess / relist).
Effectively everything would come down to build price, except PLEX which with all the extra isk people save from buying items would inflate massively.



I think the absurdly rich could cause problems under any system. I don't see how this system would be any worse for that, as I mentioned there would also be the option to match the low price and have your item be sold randomly in proportion with the other items at the same price.
Thexx Littlechurch
Black Whole Industries
#15 - 2013-08-30 23:46:05 UTC
Beelzebozo wrote:
I'm kind of wondering why everyone is responding so negatively to this. It's just a suggestion to reduce the tedium of trading while driving prices down faster for everyone. Just tell me why its a bad idea and move on, why the ad hominem and accusations?


You're thinking too small. Ever had a large order fill in 5 minutes? Or wonder why someone bought exactly 100 of your afterburners? It's because a freighter rolled in and bought or sold a ton of what you have/want. That's what keeps the prices from deviating too far from the average.

When a price gets too low, a Haul-trader scoops off the lowest priced orders and leaves with them. When a buy price gets too high - same thing except the hauler fills those high orders and the lower ones remain.

It's a beautiful, brilliant system for a game that works (approximately) like real world economics.

The tedium only drives the price down if you're impatient. It never stays there unless there is a good reason.


Oh and PS: I read somewhere recently that CCP employs 5 real honest-to-goodness economists to keep things in line. So I think it's good the way it is.
Aiwha
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2013-08-31 00:23:48 UTC
For once, I think a half decent idea is on the forums. 0.01 isk wars can be annoying as **** and play to bot strengths. Make risk/reward a bit more risky for station trading.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.

Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
#17 - 2013-08-31 01:23:43 UTC
Beelzebozo wrote:

No doubt the market is very robust. But that the typical change in price is 0.01 isk could negatively effect this. Who can say how much more responsive it would be if bidders weren't allowed to do this?
It would fluctuate more then it currently does, that's for sure, but imo it's fluctuating enough already... I'd say check the price of a module for a whole week, making a note of the price every day (or multiple times a day). That way you can see what impact the current system has already. I also have my doubts about more fluctuation being a good thing. The average would probably still be the same since it's mainly a matter of question and demand... Also, what if people want to make a sell order of 200 ISK when there are orders of 198 ISK and 203 ISK? Would that even be possible with your system? Would I have to calculate the price every single time I want to place/modify an order or is this done automatically? What preferences would be used if it's done automatically? (not all orders placed by people are by default the best order)


Beelzebozo wrote:
Re: 3rd party software, I'm not sure about it, I just know it exists and where 3rd party software exists there are people that use it. When the same person is 0.01ing you every 5 minutes for 18 straight hours you have to wonder.
Yes, it exists. Yes, it's used. Yes, it's still illegal.. So again, if you suspect someone is using it just report that player. I'm sure that player wondered the same about you in case it wasn't a bot though.


Beelzebozo wrote:
Re: the notitifications, I'm not talking about an eve mail for each one or something absurd like that, how about just a color system where you look at your current orders and all of the ones at the lowest price for a station are green and the ones where you've been underbid are red? Or something like the transaction journal only applied to your market orders.
That more or less already exists - you can mark your orders blue so you won't have to look for the price every single time you're checking if they're still the best price.


Beelzebozo wrote:
I'm kind of wondering why everyone is responding so negatively to this. It's just a suggestion to reduce the tedium of trading while driving prices down faster for everyone. Just tell me why its a bad idea and move on, why the ad hominem and accusations?
Well to be honest with you, I got the feeling like you're only back for a few days and start complaining already. Or in other words you barely have an idea of what the current market system is about. Give it some more time and start judging when you got all the facts together. If you don't like the 0,01 ISK game, switch to a trade-hub other than Jita, where the 0,01 ISK game isn't played as much as in the hub with the highest population...

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Beelzebozo
Starless and BB
#18 - 2013-08-31 01:51:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Beelzebozo
Grauth Thorner wrote:
It would fluctuate more then it currently does, that's for sure, but imo it's fluctuating enough already... I'd say check the price of a module for a whole week, making a note of the price every day (or multiple times a day). That way you can see what impact the current system has already. I also have my doubts about more fluctuation being a good thing. The average would probably still be the same since it's mainly a matter of question and demand... Also, what if people want to make a sell order of 200 ISK when there are orders of 198 ISK and 203 ISK? Would that even be possible with your system? Would I have to calculate the price every single time I want to place/modify an order or is this done automatically? What preferences would be used if it's done automatically? (not all orders placed by people are by default the best order)


Well, It wouldn't necessarily cause more fluctuation, it would just cause a faster move toward equilibrium. This would actually make things worse for traders, but better for consumers. In the current system the price difference between an item in Jita and one in Rens is generally gonna oscillate toward equilibrium and then away as traders start losing or breaking even on their bids, the only difference with my system is that the frequency of that sine wave would be higher.

Your question of whether one would be able to place an order for 200 isk, sure he can. This issue is that the 198 seller is at the top of the list and to become at the top of the list above him you need to bid 196. Or you can bid 198 and share the slot. If you want to play speculator and bid 200 then why not?

You could also make the interface a lot simpler by collapsing all of the bids into one. So instead of a big list of the item with ascending prices like so:

Afterburner - 12 quantity - 1,999,999.98
Afterburner - 21 quantity - 1,999,999.99
Afterburner - 7 quantity - 2,059,999
Afterburner - 10 quantity - 2,088,888.00

It could just say:

Afterburner - 50 quantity - starting at 1,999,999.99 (33 items at price)

People, generally speaking, aren't gonna be interested in prices higher than the minimum. It would streamline the whole thing for them, and the bidders who want to speculate at higher prices than the minimum over a long term, we'll if they are right then their time will come and they'll emerge at the top, in time.
Reckless Ourtomineng
#19 - 2013-08-31 02:18:04 UTC
Beelzebozo wrote:

- Give notifications to players when they are no longer selling for the lowest price.


this could be a nice add with check option for activation.

Beelzebozo wrote:

- Instead of having to tediously type in a number for the sale price, offer the option to either share the lowest price at the station or beat the price by 1%.


Also this.
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#20 - 2013-08-31 02:25:13 UTC
Thexx Littlechurch wrote:
The 1% bid idea is neat and all, but no thanks. We have the best trading system and economy in gaming history and that's what keeps me in EVE. It isn't broken, so don't bother us with fixing it please.

I won't say the system is perfect as it is, but it's close enough. The 0.01isk bid is just a natural reflection of the bidding system, especially on trades with a very narrow margin.

If you think it's tedious then you're probably doing it wrong. (No offense)

Also the timer on bids is 5 minutes. Not 15.

I hate to sound like a turd about this, but there it is.



This. This, this, this.

I've worked the economies in numerous mmo's and this is by far the best I have ever seen.

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