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Can someone explain this to me??? Fuel Block Madness?
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Drake Achilles
Dark Tribunal Industries
#1 - 2013-08-19 02:08:31 UTC
OK, so I didn't see anything about this as I scrolled through the topics so here goes...

I may be missing something here as I undertake a PI POS fuel enterprise but what has me miffed is that Isotopes, are ridiculously priced, at what I see in the market right now, the low is 900 for a nitrogen isotope... you need 400 base of them for a fuel block, that is 360K ISK for just that commodity... a Fuel block is only worth 17K on the market.

I must be a complete noob or something because this blows my mind how that works, what am I missing?

It would seem that making fuel blocks is not a good idea.
Zahara Cody
Imperial Corrections Service.
#2 - 2013-08-19 02:18:54 UTC
A goon ice interdiction?

Hating is free, that's why poor people do it the best.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-08-19 02:55:46 UTC
Drake Achilles wrote:


I must be a complete noob or something because this blows my mind how that works, what am I missing?

It would seem that making fuel blocks is not a good idea.


It's a great idea if you mine your own ice. Hope that helps. Shocked

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Dersk
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-08-19 03:48:40 UTC
Drake Achilles wrote:
you need 400 base of them for a fuel block, that is 360K ISK for just that commodity... a Fuel block is only worth 17K on the market.

I must be a complete noob or something because this blows my mind how that works, what am I missing?


You're missing how many fuel blocks are made ever time the 400 isotopes are consumed.

Hint: It's 40
Drake Achilles
Dark Tribunal Industries
#5 - 2013-08-19 05:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Achilles
OK, good point, not as bad then. 9K for the isotopes per block then, over half the price of the block.

Just seems crazy that selling all the items individually adds up to about 17K which is how much the block costs, then you have to get the blueprint aswell and build the block...

Just seems odd to me.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-08-19 07:04:17 UTC
Drake Achilles wrote:
OK, good point, not as bad then. 9K for the isotopes per block then, over half the price of the block.

Just seems crazy that selling all the items individually adds up to about 17K which is how much the block costs, then you have to get the blueprint aswell and build the block...

Just seems odd to me.


Fuel blocks are screwed at the moment, mostly because of ice changes not yet fully working through and now there's added speculation because of Goons ice interdiction (not sure how that's going - we'll see).
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#7 - 2013-08-19 09:15:49 UTC
Caldari fuel blocks.

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/0/4051/40/5/0/5

Go and look at that isk/hr number. If you can keep lines full (takes a bunch of capitalization) and the market isn't flooded (that's the trick) then...

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Logical Chaos
Very Italian People
The Initiative.
#8 - 2013-08-19 09:28:35 UTC
Drake Achilles wrote:
OK, so I didn't see anything about this as I scrolled through the topics so here goes...


You missed the thread "Isotope prices on the rise"?

Drake Achilles wrote:

I may be missing something here as I undertake a PI POS fuel enterprise but what has me miffed is that Isotopes, are ridiculously priced, at what I see in the market right now, the low is 900 for a nitrogen isotope... you need 400 base of them for a fuel block, that is 360K ISK for just that commodity... a Fuel block is only worth 17K on the market.

I must be a complete noob or something because this blows my mind how that works, what am I missing?

It would seem that making fuel blocks is not a good idea.


This has been answered already :<

But yeah at the moment it can be risky to put up 30 day jobs of Fuel Blocks because you do not know if the spike will really last that long. Maybe goons will get bored because of the randomness of Ice Spawns etc. Then again, most people don't have the money for 30day jobs anyway.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#9 - 2013-08-19 10:09:52 UTC
Logical Chaos wrote:
Drake Achilles wrote:
OK, so I didn't see anything about this as I scrolled through the topics so here goes...


You missed the thread "Isotope prices on the rise"?

Drake Achilles wrote:

I may be missing something here as I undertake a PI POS fuel enterprise but what has me miffed is that Isotopes, are ridiculously priced, at what I see in the market right now, the low is 900 for a nitrogen isotope... you need 400 base of them for a fuel block, that is 360K ISK for just that commodity... a Fuel block is only worth 17K on the market.

I must be a complete noob or something because this blows my mind how that works, what am I missing?

It would seem that making fuel blocks is not a good idea.


This has been answered already :<

But yeah at the moment it can be risky to put up 30 day jobs of Fuel Blocks because you do not know if the spike will really last that long. Maybe goons will get bored because of the randomness of Ice Spawns etc. Then again, most people don't have the money for 30day jobs anyway.

Ice spawns aren't random. They spawn in the same systems as the old belts. All the new ice changes do is mean that as people finish the sites, they have a 4 hour wait, so they all start gathering in other sites. Huge groups of miners around an orca is fun. Get everyone in, blap the orca, then blap anything else you can before going down.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#10 - 2013-08-19 15:14:03 UTC
Drake Achilles wrote:
OK, good point, not as bad then. 9K for the isotopes per block then, over half the price of the block.

Just seems crazy that selling all the items individually adds up to about 17K which is how much the block costs, then you have to get the blueprint aswell and build the block...

Just seems odd to me.

So if you buy the ICE products at Jita sell prices you break even? Who ever would have thunk it...

For most low level manufacturing stuff, buying supplies at Jita sell price puts you into the negative.

If you seriously want to make isk building fuel blocks, use buy orders to get your ice products a little cheaper, or find another place to buy them that is well below Jita prices. You usually but ICE products in/near the ICE mining systems much cheaper than buying from Jita, especially if you use buy orders. Many ICE miners will gladly sell to your orders in system, rather than haul it all to Jita for a few isk more.

On top of that the coming ICE interdiction, if it even happens, has preemptively driven ICE prices up. particularly Caldari (nitrogen issos). The fuel block prices have not yet jumped as much as the issos as most of the fuel blocks currently on the market were either built with ICE products bought before the price jumped, or from stock piles that were built up before the Odyssey changes went live.

Fuel Blocks are consumed at a very high rate. They are one of the most profitable noob friendly items to build. Sometimes you will need to ride the market and wait for the prices to react to supply to maximize your profits, but with a halfway decent setup you will always make isk from building fuel blocks. The margins may be small, but volumes you can move will more than make up for that.

You are already making your own PI mats, so that is a great start. I am not suggesting your PI mats are free, but making them yourself guarantees you are getting them at a good price. You will never be able to buy them cheaper than you can make them yourself. You just need to determine what you will value them at when calculating profits. Using Jita sell prices will give you a minimum profit, but where you draw the line between trade profit and manufacturing profit is up to you.

The challenge you face is finding a good cheap source of ICE products. Many fuel block manufacturers watch the market very closely, and stock up when the prices are down. What your are seeing now is the ICE products at a high, and the fuel blocks have not jumped up in price yet, but they will if the ice products prices stay high. Fuel block prices have been around 16-17K for a while, the jump in ice products has only been in the last week or so, if the prices stay up we will see fuel blocks jump up to 20k very soon. Even higher if the goons follow thru on the ice interdiction.

I say this because with the amount of market speculation, and impact of the rumors of a coming ICE interdiction the goons may have already see the market shift enough to meet the target prices the interdiction was supposed to cause. perhaps the plan from the beginning was only to talk about an interdiction, and exploit the results that the speculation would cause. I can assure you, the goons stockpiles were in place long before any hint of an interdiction was mentioned. Everything in that plan is done except the actual sale when the prices hit the targeted peak. I expect the goons behind it are already well on their way in their next project. How much of an interdiction we actually see will depend more on how bored the grunts are that will be carrying it out that the need for the market impact it has already caused.

Everything the goons do is to manipulate the game or market in some way, and have fun while doing it. Laughing at the pubbies caught in the crossfire. The fights, ganks, and tears, are only an added bonus that helps to keep the grunts entertained. The Goons ventures are a lot deeper and more complex than most players realize.


Careby
#11 - 2013-08-19 19:19:30 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
...You will never be able to buy them cheaper than you can make them yourself...


But you should never figure the cost of your materials at less than what you could have sold them for.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#12 - 2013-08-19 20:01:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Careby wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
...You will never be able to buy them cheaper than you can make them yourself...


But you should never figure the cost of your materials at less than what you could have sold them for.



Moreover, Bugsy statement is not necessarily true.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Tenchi Sal
White Knights of Equestria
#13 - 2013-08-22 13:49:12 UTC
to the op:

problem is you're trying to buy your minerals from jita where they are pretty high compared to all other trade hubs. try looking at a trade hub like dodixie. you'd be shocked to find how much lower the minerals prices are there, both ice and ore. just buy the minerals there, build the fuel block, sell them back at jita. profit.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#14 - 2013-08-22 17:36:30 UTC
Market Manipulation is market manipulation.

Welcome to Meta Swarm Online.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Leigh Akiga
Kuhri Innovations
#15 - 2013-08-22 19:19:44 UTC
Zahara Cody wrote:
A goon ice interdiction?


The pubbies in GD and Gevlon Goblin have assured us all that this is a non-issue
Grozen
Mateber Mining and Manufacturing Company
C U L T
#16 - 2013-08-23 20:42:42 UTC
Few days ago i was passing through Kamio(2ice belt system) and i saw in local miners complaining that no one is coming to gank them....ShockedLol

knowledge is power.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#17 - 2013-08-28 14:52:00 UTC
Careby wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
...You will never be able to buy them cheaper than you can make them yourself...


But you should never figure the cost of your materials at less than what you could have sold them for.


I agree 100%, but if you are using the sell prices in Jita, your margins will be thin or non existent. You must use a reasonable sell price for those materials, not the highest possible price. If you are not a Jita trader, using Jita sell price is not reasonable as you would never get that for the materials without playing 0.01 isk games as a Jita trader.

If using Jita prices to ensure a profitable set up, some will use Jita Buys for there sell price, and Jita Sells for there supply price. This makes sense to do as it uses the prices of a very high volume market. You will have no issues buying supplies at that price, or selling to the buy orders at that price. The problem arises when margins are tight, often buying supplies from Jita sells, and selling to Jita buys will result in Zero profit, or even a loss. Many players use these numbers and then wonder why there spread sheets show no profit.

if you are doing PI, and just selling the materials you produce, how do you do it? The most common method is to simple ship them to the nearest trade hub and sell to buy orders there. You are not getting Jita sell price do it this way, so in turn it is not reasonable to count those materials at a value equal to Jita sell prices if you are using them to manufacture. Count them at the value you would have sold them for.

If you want to actually make isk, you need to find a supply at a lower price. Using buy orders, even in Jita will drop your costs, with things like PI, producing your own supply will save you even more. With an established PI operation your only real costs are the import/export fees. However the value of these materials is at least equal to local buy order prices, as you could sell them for that price instantly. You should always count the cost of supplies at a value you can sell them for, but if you use Jita sell prices for this, you will have a very hard time making a profit. At the very least use Jita buy prices.

What I do is find a minor hub or just a busy station, with a decent supply of what I need, then determine a price I can set buy orders at there that will give me a sufficient supply of those materials. I then use this price for my supply, including any materials I produce myself. This is always below Jita prices, but many suppliers would rather sell locally for 5% less than haul all the way to Jita, and play the 0.01 isk games for only a small increase in profits. For example buying ICE, If you put up buy orders in a system with ICE belts, you will see orders get filled, at prices much lower than in Jita.

Some will argue that I could simply take the materials I get from those lower buy orders and ship them to Jita to sell at a profit, that this is trade profit, not manufacturing profit. While this is true, profit is profit. If I can get 5% trade profit from cheaper materials, and another 5% profit on the item it self, then that is still 10% over all profit, when I would have only made 5% doing only one or the other. Profit is profit, and my system can make me billions per month. Where exactly to draw the line between trade profit and manufacturing profit makes very little difference when it all goes into the same pocket. if you are making profit while counting the materials you produce your self at a reasonable value, then you are doing it right. Am I making the absolute maximum profit I can off those mats? Maybe not, But I am having fun doing it, and not having to deal with the 0.01 isk games in Jita or any other trade hub.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-08-28 21:58:14 UTC
Grozen wrote:
Few days ago i was passing through Kamio(2ice belt system) and i saw in local miners complaining that no one is coming to gank them....ShockedLol


They must be absolutely catatonic by now, then, given how far the price of ice (Caldari) has fallen.

ONOES, it's almost like those nasty traders conspired to flood the market and rob them of profits or something. Shocked

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Adunh Slavy
#19 - 2013-08-29 16:39:58 UTC
The fight between low order goods and high order goods.

Block BPOs are cheap, it's an easy market to enter, the cost of the BPO, per unit, decreases over time.

The lower order good, the blocks, are very inexpensive to produce in relation to the higher order goods, the ice and PI materials. For an end consumer, it becomes cheaper to "do it your self" over the long run.

Even those who do not mine their own materials can produce at low cost by accumulating raw materials from the market during price slumps or from isolated areas that have generally lower prices than market hubs.

Ice block producers, who are not consumers, are at a disadvantage to end consumers who produce for their own needs for the simple reason that block production, from high order to low order, is very inexpensive compared to the relative time and effort requirement of collecting the raw materials.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Antony E Stark
The Tory Party
#20 - 2013-08-29 18:19:46 UTC
Leigh Akiga wrote:
Zahara Cody wrote:
A goon ice interdiction?


The pubbies in GD and Gevlon Goblin have assured us all that this is a non-issue


That's because there are no Goons, and even if there were the 0.0 dream is over ! Bear