EVE General Discussion

You belong at the bottom you no face brat...

*TinFoilHattery* So Goons can create even more market havoc by terrorizing Gallente-space belt miners due to a newly introduced supply bottleneck? *TinFoilHattery*

Giving credence to "helpful" industrial ideas from Goons is akin to putting the revolver to the temple -- never a good idea if you want to live long and prosper.

well... yea... market need to be driven by actions of players!
all players do need to be seen on market!
thats first rule of economy... if you dont want that... just seed all market so that ppl can buy it from NPCs and end the indy ppl misery...

Industrialists manage quite fine, its just the natural order of things that miners stay at the bottom where all labour classes belong. If that upsets you perhaps you should have higher aspirations than being the EVE equivalent of a burger flipper.

You are saying that miners place is at the bottom... and that's the place where miners belong...
You are saying that miners place is at the bottom where all labour classes are...
You are saying that miners are equivalent of a burger flipper...

Well then... why then industry and mining have huge skill tree???

You don't need to have PhD to a good burger flipper...
You don't need to have PhD to a good laborer...
You don't need to have PhD to be at the bottom...

But you need PhD to be a good miner/indy in EVE...

In eve mining skill tree is larger then for some other, much more lucrative professions...
and if it is like what you say then please decrease SP worth of all mining skills by factor of 10 (divide by 10) and give all miners theirs SP back so they can redistribute it to skills for more lucrative professions (aka. so they they can go to collage.)

If its like manual work... you don't need any school for that (ok... maybe primary)...

For start I will disclose my bias, I’m high sec carebare salvager, most of my income comes salvaging lvl3 and 4 missions in high sec. I doubled in mining but salvaging was easier to train and generates much larger per hour income , even when I give half of ISK I get from salvaging to people that cleared the mission.

So having come clean about my conflict of interest I do agree that mining is not profitable enough, especial compared to amount of skills required to do it in most productive way. But I do not agree that mining should be only source of minerals, nor do I agree that meta 0 modules should not be dropping from wrecks. For start it makes no sense from lore point of view, why should New Eden be devoid of such basic technologies as recycling, and why should NPC ships drop no modules if PC ships do? From game-play point o view why should choice be removed from players on how will they get their minerals? Some might like mining and some might like salvaging to get their minerals, who are we to say to one group or another they should have their choice removed from game. Those are completely arbitrary demands made by people interested only in their profit rates and not caring either abut game balance or internal game lore consistency

Instead of diminishing game options for sake of narrow group of payers and their personal interest we should want to increase number of choices and make them as balanced as possible.

So to balance mining and salvaging I would suggest increasing volume of modules and drone droppings by large amount, maybe by as much as order of magnitude (exact size of increase should require some testing) . In any case volume of any module should be greater then volume of either ore or minerals required/generated by manufacture/reprocessing of that module. This is primary to slow down salvaging. In my experience salvaging lvl 4 Blockade mission will fill my Noctis to cca 60-80 % of max cargo, and on average Noctis could clean 1 to 4 lvl 4 missions before it has to empty its cargo hold. Increasing volume would ether force salvagers to select only most expensive loot, leaving most of low price junk behind, or would force them to develop more complicated salvaging methods, like jettison can salvaging, or group salvaging with industrial ships moving large volumes of modules to repossessing, much like miners do now. Either way it would reduce number of looted modules that end up reprocessed in to minerals thus decreasing mineral supply, increasing mineral price and in the end making mining more profitable.

Some additional benefits of this proposal would be actually making volumes of modules more consistent from lore point of view, for example small turrets on frigates look like they would occupy much more space then typically listed 5m^3. Also it would remove mineral compression abuses. Drawback would be much harder transport of modules, I suspect services like Red Frog would profit nicely form this, also I would expect more local manufacturing with imported ore to avoid hauling bulky modules. This would also likely increase profitability of of T1 manufacturing as less modules would salvaged and reduced long distance trade in modules would reduce competition. Overall I think this change would be good for EvE economy.

P.S. Sorry for the bad English

This is incorrect. Plenty of people multi-box running anomalies, including sanctums and havens. Countless pilots run their super capitals, capitals, battleships and T3s simultaneously.

Same goes for level 4 and 5 missions. Multi-boxing is a very common practice in these activities.

I can not speak for Incursions as I rarely run their sites, but it isn't very different from a difficult DED complex or Sleeper site where I also know people multi-box.

Do not make assumptions where you clearly have no experience.

tl;dr - countless people PVE multibox using the most expensive of ships every single day.

We are touching on 4 inter related game elements in this discussion, mining, salvage materials (from rats, rogue drones and player ships), loot drops (from rats, rogue drones, and player ships). All must be taken into consideration.

Mining: This should largely remain as it is, although mechanics to make it more entertaining would be welcome. Ore distribution needs work. If we define availability as:

Plentiful: Freely available in normal belts
Rare: Limited availability in some normal belts
Very Rare: Available only in hard to find belts, usually those spawned very small supply in a mission or complex.
Virtually Non-existent: That 1% chance of striking the (small) mother load in a normal or mission spawned belt.

That leads up to this:

High Sec: Basic ores should be plentiful, Moderate quality ore very rare, High ends virtually non-existent.
Low Sec: Basic ores should be plentiful, Moderate quality ore should be plentiful, High ends should be very rare.
Null Sec: Basic and Moderate quality ore should be plentiful, High ends should be rare.

Controversial enough? Now comes the big change.

Loot drops: Eliminated.

The idea that perfectly intact modules drop in a can to be picked up is a simple game mechanic, but if you think about, it is more than a little out of character for the EVE universe.

Salvage: Salvage takes the place of the simplistic loot drop mechanism.

Salvage from player and normal rat ships produces only one thing, bulk scrap. Bulk scrap fills a normal ships cargo hold very quickly, but can be reprocessed to produce two things, basic minerals and damaged modules.

1: Basic Minerals: The amount of usable minerals produced would be based on reprocessing skills, and only a fraction of the minerals that originally were used to construct the ship, keeping competition with the mining profession in check.

2: Damaged Modules: Amount of damage could vary randomly, and can be repaired (for a price) normally. The modules would be either Meta items specific to the rats that produced the wreck, or a small percentage of the modules that were mounted on a player ship.

Specialized salvage collection ships would place an emphasis not only on tractor beam range and speed, and salvage beam speed and efficiency, but also on raw cargo space. A logical extension of this would be a Roqual like variant that can be brought in to reprocess bulk scrap in the field and perhaps compress them, allowing the minerals to be transported much more easily to production/market facilities. Possibly you could outfit them to be able to mount a repair system to repair damaged modules salvaged while still in the field, thus saving the repair cost in a station.

Special note: Rogue Drone Salvage.

Since Rogue Drones are unique, highly advance mechanical entities their salvage should also be unique. While they would drop normal bulk scrap like all ships do, their "module drops" would instead be specific to the drone/fighter/fighter bomber industry.

Make all T2 drones (scout, mining, logistics, EW) and drone oriented rigs require specialized components in their production, components that only drop from Rogue Drones. This could also be extended to fighters and fighter bomber construction, as well as the construction of any drone related rigs.

A small bounty could also be placed on rogue drones if necessary to keep them viable as an income source.

As an offshoot of this, I would also like to see T2 drones (and possibly fighters/fighter bombers) have a rig slot or two just as ships do. Specialized drone rigs could modify the capabilities of drones/fighters/fighter bombers much like normal ships, increasing speed, durability, range, etc. This would also mean that your drones become more interesting as well as a more valuable component of your ships equipment.

This whole idea was about 15 minutes worth of work, and is no doubt riddled with flaws. It would also require some significant changes to EVE code and may not be practical from a developers perspective in regards to time needed to implement.

However, I'm throwing it out there anyway as food for thought in alternate ways to handle the various problems that mining, salvaging, rogue drones and loot drops in general have in relation to each other.

Please forgive my wall of text.

@ CCP
In this thread are some nice suggestion how to revive industry... please... give us response...
Are you going to do anything on subject of rebalancing mineral faucets/drains ratio???


In state in what EVE is now there are huge problems on this subject.
The most of all minerals in EVE are coming from drones. And when you add up on that loot drops you are at the point where mining dont play significant role at all.
That is WRONG.
Mining needs to be THE largest SOURCE (If not only) source of minerals in EVE.

Think a little about it...
- Is it normal to go to mine with shotgun to mine???
- Is it normal that shooting down planes give you more materials for making new planes then mining? (WOW we have here Perpetual motion here)
- Is it normal that profession for which you must have PhD is giving you revenue of burger flipper proffesion?
- Is it normal that profession for which you must have PhD give you place in society for whitch ppl are saying "they need to learn their place, its at the bottom.... where they belong."

Well... all that "normal stuff" we have in EVE.

Lets translate that on EVE:

- You load your weapons on your combat ship and kill drones and rats to aquire minerals.
- You aquire more minerals (much more) with shooting drones and rats then with mining.
- Mining skill tree is larger then for some other, much more lucrative professions (now), and you the least revenue.
- Mining skill tree is larger then for some other, much more lucrative professions (now), and ppl are saying to your face "miners need to learn their place, its at the bottom.... where they belong."

You see something wrong here???
Ppl in this thread have solutions for this problem!!!



And about Manufacturing...

Manufacturing of basic T1 items is... well... dead...
And that is the first step for young players that decide to go indy way in EVE, and it is dead.
I think thats just wrong.

I will not here be writing real world comparisons (but I could do it) about it but i'll say it directly.
That industry is based on T1 meta 0 items... isn't it easy ko just remove that items from loot drops???
Easy and efficiently problem solved.


Revive industry in EVE, please.

Thnx you in advance.


*used intelectual property of many ppl in this thread.


-> updated first post.

Well perhaps it was the way that Zydrine & Megacyte prices tumbled by about 2/3 within 3 months of the drone regions being introduced that led us astray. Did you know that Zydrine used to sell for almost 4k/unit?

Do you really think that the few people who mine ABC in 0.0 are supplying so much ABC ore that they're keeping high-end prices at less than 1/3 of what they were in 2006, despite the vastly increased demand since then?