Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Edit - before you respond to the subject line or first paragraph, please read the last paragraph, where I admit that this was not a good proposal. I'll leave the OP intact apart from adding these disclaimers.

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The OP:

In order to somewhat level the playing field between new characters and old, and ultimately make Eve a more satisfying experience for all, I propose removing or changing many of the "core" skills. Ideally, these skills would be completely removed from the game, all SP trained in those skills would be refunded to the player, and the advantages of having those skills would be applied to the base stats for all ships. Just as we got rid of learning skills so that we didn't have new players waiting six months to be able to min/max training, so too, we should pare down the "core" skills to level the playing field.

This means removing the following skills: Electronics, Targeting, Multitasking, Signature Analysis, Engineering, Energy Systems Operation, Energy Management, Shield Management, Shield Operations, Hull Upgrades*, Mechanics, Evasive Maneuvering, Navigation*, and Warp Drive Operation.

* Hull Upgrades - change it to Mechanics Upgrades, which affects the fitting attributes of armor tanking modules, decreasing PG or CPU need per level (as with Engineering Upgrades or Shield Upgrades)

* Navigation - change it to Propulsion Upgrades, which affects the fitting attributes of propulsion modules, decreasing PG or CPU need per level ( as with Engineering Upgrades or Shield Upgrades)

As mentioned, the benefits of these skills would be applied to all ships. So, there would be no loss in ship effectiveness from this change.

All of these skills apply to all ships, at all times. Together, they constitute a formidable block of skills that separate new players from experienced ones. When you add it all up, these skills form a ~129-day barrier of training skills that make your ships better, but do not really open up any new fun (~110 days if a player trains Cybernetics IV and can afford a set of +4 implants right away). They are the bulk of the grind of skill-training in Eve, without the benefit of anticipating that lovely day when you can fly your shiny new spaceship.

What separates these skills from other skills is that they do not affect modules directly. They do not make modules more effective, or directly easier to fit. They are generalized skills. Players would still have to specialize in specific ship classes, weapon systems, etc.

I am okay with a certain amount of delay training "boring" skills - that is why I have left in Spaceship Command, Advanced Spaceship Command, and Capital Ships. If it is necessary for some reason to delay entry into larger ship classes, I would be okay with increasing the training time multiplier for some skills (e.g. Heavy Assault Ships goes from 6x multiplier to 8x).

Any skills/modules/etc that are currently unlocked by these skills would have the prerequisites shifted over to something else.

This change continues the idea that an old player has the advantage of more options, but a specialized newer player can still be as good in a specific role. It means that a new player can be fully effective in a specific ship sooner, which should increase the fun-factor. It makes the new player effective approximately 4 months sooner than he is at present.

Downsides include that many players will have a ton of SP available for reallocation (~5.6m SP if all the above skills were removed and a player had trained them all to Level V). It will also be easier to train effective alts much faster. Some may see these things as an upside... Additionally, the potential SP blocks for Intelligence/Memory are disproportionately hit by this change - I am okay with that.

Thoughts? Criticism? Flames?

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Postscript:

Having read and considered the opinions of so many along the way - I admit this wasn't the best idea. They can't all be gold.

Here is my final response from post #47:

"I'll accept this. I started this thread because I started a new pilot a few months ago. The plan was just to train him to fly T2 frigates - but to fly them very well. I got frustrated with seeing how long it takes to skill up a new pilot - even a fairly specialized one, even with all the advantages of knowing what skills I need, unlimited ISK to throw at the problem, good implants, perfectly planned and timed respecs, etc. I thought, "Man, if I am this frustrated training all these core skills as someone who has been playing and loving Eve for 6+ years, a lot of new players must get just as frustrated and quit along the way."

Obviously, those of us who have made it over that hump consider ourselves a rare breed.

From the responses I am getting, it is as if I suggested removing The Crucible from Marine Corps Boot Camp. No one enjoyed it, but they'll be damned if someone can wear the EGA unless they went through it.

Fair enough, core skills should remain in the game. Those who cannot suck it up and persevere past it just won't be long-term paying subscribers. If that is the price of the sandbox, then I'll take the sandbox."

I wouldn't want to remove skill training completely, since then you take away the player development progression aspect of the MMORPG.

One of the special things about Eve is that you can get "better" (gain more SP) even when you are not able to play the game. I believe, however, that a large group of generalized skills that applies to all ships does not keep players actively engaged in the game in the same way that waiting two weeks to be able to fly a cool new spaceship effectively does. Rather, it creates a perceived barrier to entry into the full world of Eve.

At this point, I would be totally fine with removing attribute implants completely from the game (except for the fact that I love seeing them on pod killmails).

This is kind of a petty request. I mean they do give you some levels free on character creation. I thought learning skills were a good idea because they rewarded long term play... but removing skills? Some people won't be satisfied 'til they remove one of the C's from CCP.

What i like is skills like logistics V, it does so much and so little at the same time.
Also i think the op means he wants more free SP? right? i mean i did not TL;DR this post at all!....

edit: just to late

By your logic that SP matter it would benefit older players much more than new players as they would get tons of unallocated SP that the newer players would barely get.

Look at eve official eve trailers, and at eve mon PB.

Feel difference.

Don't be daft. You're not leveling the playing field at all. You're giving all the vets the ability to further the gap between them and the new players with all that extra sp you're giving them.

The core skills are needed for character progression and a general understanding of the game. Removing them does nothing to lessen the *perceived* gap between old and new players, a gap which in fact is much smaller than you seem to think.

This is a bad idea and as such won't gain any traction.

IIRC you can if you use a signal amplifier.

Yes, or an Auto Targeting System, which also adds two max targets for each one you fit. Most fleet logistics ships find something much more useful than either of those modules.

hell no

I was disappointed when learning skills were removed because like others have said they rewarded those with long term goals.

Unfortunately the foolish members of the game too this idea and just told all new players that they NEEDED lvl 5 in all training skills before anything else or it was pointless (way to scare people off dumbasses, the learning skills were about balancing short term goals and long term goals for the individual, not maximizing sp/ph for everyone).

Core skills do the same thing, do you train up this core skill or do you focus on something specific to the ship you're currently flying, or do you adapt your fit to better utilise your skills? Better yet, do you get more friends and fly as a fleet?

This would also be horrible for new players because someone like me would get millions of sp back where as a new player would get a few thousand.

This ranks up there with things like "let us remap our sp", seriously, live with the consequences of your actions the same as the rest of us.
Do I like the 4.5mil I have in industry? no. Do I moan about it? no