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[Summit] PvE

First post
Author
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#21 - 2013-08-26 09:02:34 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
One possible way to deepen PVE at least slightly would be to diversify it enough that players weren't put on the frigate->battleship treadmill, with battleships as the endgame (well, except for those select few people running L4s in assault frigates, etc.). It would be cool if advanced PVE depended more on the ability to choose the ship and the fit for the job than presenting yet another occasion to undock the Raven Navy Issue.


Reasonably profitable PVE content that's accessible to frigates/cruisers would be a big help to newer players. Outside of FW, there's a lot of pressure to race upward and get a battlecruiser, because the PVE content available to smaller ships means you'll be utterly destitute otherwise. Obviously, you'd have to balance the lower initial investment and SP barrier to entry some how (probably by increasing the risk).

---
Obligatory comment about discrepancy between PVE and PVP fits and how that should probably be changed.
---
LP stores need a serious rework.
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#22 - 2013-08-26 11:25:46 UTC
Pirate factions need level 5 agents. Also some improvements on the pirate lp store would be nice, empire factions have been showered with ships, modules, implants, etc while pirate lp stores havent been updated in ages.

The Coreli Corporation is recruiting.

Alain Colcer
Nadire Security Consultants
Federation Peacekeepers
#23 - 2013-08-26 13:51:02 UTC
Please revisit COSMOS and transform it into EPIC format.

Revisit Lvl5 missions too.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#24 - 2013-08-26 18:02:51 UTC
Fleshing out the PvE for Interbus would be nice.

You can maybe start with a generic LP store (if you build one, mission-ers will come)

Further Interbus might help with live events by giving (female) players something else to cheer/hunt then mass murderers like Sansha Kuvakei

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#25 - 2013-08-26 20:47:36 UTC
IMHO biggest and most easily fixable problem with EVE pve is unbalance of rat bounties. In short bounties for battleship size rats are too big, and bounties for cruiser, and especially for frigate size rats, are too small. Because of this missions and anoms with large number of small rats are extremely unprofitable tu run.

Also this is unjustifiable limit for new player income because new players (I’m talking fem months old) will be limited to low level missions and small rats anoms that give **** for bounties, while older players blic anoms with battleship sized rats in their start cruisers, faction battleships and even carriers, for inordinate profit. So I think you should ask CCP if it could be possible to lower bounties for pirate battleships and increase them for pirate frigates and cruisers.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...

Louis Robichaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-08-27 04:38:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Does CCP actually consider PvE important in its own right or merely as a means to an end for players to get money and other resources to do Sandbox Things with?



That's an excellent question. My view on the issue can be summed up as: The large majority of EVE players spend a very big fraction of their game time doing PvE of one kind or another. There is simply no excuse to write off improving PvE gameplay as "unimportant".

I realise that there is an ideological concern about changing the nature of EVE into a PvE themepark, but candidly, that's just a post-hoc rationalisation. Whenever people are arguing for or against a change, I find it's a good mental exercise to imagine what the argument would be for reversing that change. If EVE had "good" PvE, would anyone be sincerely arguing for it to be made more predictable, boring and unchallenging in order to make EVE "less themeparky"?


I agree. I'm an RvB player. I spend my time gleefully blowing up other people - but I also get (slightly less) gleefully blown up. Since I do like flying ships with t2 mods from time to time, it means I must spend more time outside of RvB making isk with an alt than I do spend in RvB - and the reason I re-sub was to try RvB!

I'm sure there are people out there that make a living strictly on PvP, but they are a minority and will *always be* a minority - it's simply impossible for everyone to fund their PvP with PvP due to modules being destroyed, it's a less than zero sum game for that aspect.

So yeah, the things we have to do to fund our PvP should be more fun in and of themselves. PvE doesn't have the "glamour" of PvP perhaps, but it doesn't mean it's not important.

I blog a bit http://hspew.blogspot.ca

Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-08-27 06:37:36 UTC
Its been a long time since I actually ran any combat missions, but are there any that aren't just some variation of 'warp to deadspace, shoot all the things, pick up loot'?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#28 - 2013-08-27 06:46:23 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Its been a long time since I actually ran any combat missions, but are there any that aren't just some variation of 'warp to deadspace, shoot all the things, pick up loot'?


Some can be accomplished without shooting. But the mechanic is pretty much "go & do & get".

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#29 - 2013-08-27 10:39:59 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
All PvE needs to have more random & unpredictable elements.

Exactly!

But also, I'd like to see rats showing more challenging behavior.
Why dont they try to warp out when enter structure, for example?
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#30 - 2013-08-27 11:18:47 UTC
Maybe start to work on the concept that was mentioned many years ago. Make it fewer but smarther NPCs that will require PVP fit and not PVE fit to deal with. Hopefully one day there won't be a talk about PVE vs PVP fit ships, they are all PVP fit.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-08-27 11:22:07 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
... Got anything you want to say about PvE in EVE? ...

With regards to running Missions, Cosmic Anomaly, etc... what is the purpose?

Some very experienced, wealthy and knowledgeable players make 60M... 80M ... 100M per hour dual boxing L-4s, while less experienced and less wealthy players might not make more than 20M per hour. Is it the goal of L-4 to allow players to develop an income source of this level? After you have ran the same L-4 a hundred times, what else is there to gain from the experience?

Much of the PvE in reality seems to be dead-ends. They are there to allow players to reach the end game where they create wealth flying multi-billion ISK ships and using 'tactics' that are complete unusable anywhere else in Eve.

Uniwiki - "Factional warfare was introduced by CCP with the Empyrean Age Summer Expansion 2008 Eve to ease on the step from the PvE game play to the PvP gameplay."

TL;DR

You can change the path by adding randomness and unpredictability, but PvE is a dead end. CCP need to decide if they wish to keep it that way.






Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#32 - 2013-08-27 12:42:47 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
I think this thread is probably the one for the biggest activity. Got anything you want to say about PvE in EVE? (A: probably yes). POST HERE!


Its awful..

All of it..

Even the best pve things in Eve turn into a complete grind after a couple of hours.

I would suggest

Scrap the mission system entirely and make a new one based around randomized content, evolving dungeons and what not (Would be really cool for examples if npc's in a area would slowly adjust to the general meta in that area in terms of Res, damage types and ewar). Its too out dated and bad to fix.

Other things relating to missions (Note that i am mostly talking about lvl 4+ missions here although i think it should apply to others too)

* Reduce the number of npc's and increase the dps output. Moving pve from low sustained tank to higher burst tank.

* Make objective npc's attempt to warp off when in structure if not tackled. Forcing a more realistic use of midslots

* Randomize absolutely EVERYTHING that can be randomized. Eve doesn't have graphical dungeons that need to look good, making everything random shouldn't be that hard and would ruin all those horrible mission guide sites.

* Increase the need for awareness in missions with things like Logi npc's. Generally try to make the missions so that if you're not paying attention, you will lose your damn ship, even if its bling as ****. To reward being bling you could make the missions so that you can clear them really quickly if you're ready to take on a lot more incoming dps than you would through a slower approach with things like going straight for the objective, causing mass aggro.. Or something of the sort. Just generally make missions less... relaxing..

* Make the AI smart enough to react to your ship.. If you're in a missile boat they should stay at their optimal keeping their velocity as high as possible, if you're in a turret boat they should come in close and maximize transversal.

* Make lvl 4 missions so that you can do them with relatively low sp at a slow pace but make them so that if you want to do them quickly you need good sp, a good fit and some actual skill.


For Incursions:

Again.. Randomize more, they are way too ******* predictable and its always just doing the EXACT same thing over and over again. Throw in rare npc spawns that make the room much more difficult or just play different, randomize npc numbers and type some.. Just generally make it less predictable.

Tripple their length/reward. I get that the whole quick dungeon thing was a part of the design but there is absolutely no activity that takes 5 minutes to finish that doesn't really quickly turn into a grind.

Make the profitable ones harder... Seriously they are really really really easy to do, all of them. Hell we did a Oroboros site in ls with a sub optimal pvp fleet that was so small we didn't even get any isk for the site and we were never in any real danger.. it really shouldn't be that easy..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#33 - 2013-08-27 13:16:12 UTC
Mashie Saldana wrote:
Maybe start to work on the concept that was mentioned many years ago. Make it fewer but smarther NPCs that will require PVP fit and not PVE fit to deal with. Hopefully one day there won't be a talk about PVE vs PVP fit ships, they are all PVP fit.


Sorry, but i've invested too much in PvE skills & ships & fits to wish anything else than a painful horrible death to anyone pretending to make them obsolete. Evil

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#34 - 2013-08-27 13:36:59 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ali Aras wrote:
I think this thread is probably the one for the biggest activity. Got anything you want to say about PvE in EVE? (A: probably yes). POST HERE!


Its awful..

All of it..

Even the best pve things in Eve turn into a complete grind after a couple of hours.

I would suggest

Scrap the mission system entirely and make a new one based around randomized content, evolving dungeons and what not (Would be really cool for examples if npc's in a area would slowly adjust to the general meta in that area in terms of Res, damage types and ewar). Its too out dated and bad to fix. ...)


I disagree with that. PvE could be expanded and provide more gameplay as long as the current mission system co-existed with the new PvE content; some people just need a reliable source of income, with known risks and rewards, and also some players play for relax.

So rather than scrap everything and start anew, just extend PvE beyond the current dead ends, make it dynamic and player-generated for those willing to take a bigger challenge and a more active role as content generators... but keep the old playground too.

I run your missions, you run my missions, we both win. We both generate a challenge and also take it. And when we grow tired or want to relax or increase standings, we visit our favorite agent and get some of those old fashioned missions. No need to tell mission runenrs "hey, you know those 2 years worth of SP? They're wasted now, kiss our ass and love it!"

BTW, after seeing what has been going on with exploration, I would strongly suggest that CCP checked any PvE changes with people currently using PvE content. Exploration for non-explorers is awful enough...P

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#35 - 2013-08-27 13:49:48 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Mashie Saldana wrote:
Maybe start to work on the concept that was mentioned many years ago. Make it fewer but smarther NPCs that will require PVP fit and not PVE fit to deal with. Hopefully one day there won't be a talk about PVE vs PVP fit ships, they are all PVP fit.


Sorry, but i've invested too much in PvE skills & ships & fits to wish anything else than a painful horrible death to anyone pretending to make them obsolete. Evil

What skill besides Marauder 5 would be wasted if you swap the fittings from PVE to PVP?
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-08-27 14:00:51 UTC
Mashie Saldana wrote:

What skill besides Marauder 5 would be wasted if you swap the fittings from PVE to PVP?
Cruise Missiles Blink
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#37 - 2013-08-27 14:41:16 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Mashie Saldana wrote:
Maybe start to work on the concept that was mentioned many years ago. Make it fewer but smarther NPCs that will require PVP fit and not PVE fit to deal with. Hopefully one day there won't be a talk about PVE vs PVP fit ships, they are all PVP fit.


Sorry, but i've invested too much in PvE skills & ships & fits to wish anything else than a painful horrible death to anyone pretending to make them obsolete. Evil


None of those skills would become "obsolete". Propulsion Jamming IV takes, what, 36 hours to train from scratch? Once you've done that, congrats, you can "PvP fit" your ships.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#38 - 2013-08-27 14:42:10 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Mashie Saldana wrote:

What skill besides Marauder 5 would be wasted if you swap the fittings from PVE to PVP?
Cruise Missiles Blink


Uh I don't know if you noticed but CMLs are pretty mean now.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Baaldor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-08-27 15:35:55 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ali Aras wrote:
I think this thread is probably the one for the biggest activity. Got anything you want to say about PvE in EVE? (A: probably yes). POST HERE!


Its awful..

All of it..

Even the best pve things in Eve turn into a complete grind after a couple of hours.

I would suggest

Scrap the mission system entirely and make a new one based around randomized content, evolving dungeons and what not (Would be really cool for examples if npc's in a area would slowly adjust to the general meta in that area in terms of Res, damage types and ewar). Its too out dated and bad to fix.

Other things relating to missions (Note that i am mostly talking about lvl 4+ missions here although i think it should apply to others too)

* Reduce the number of npc's and increase the dps output. Moving pve from low sustained tank to higher burst tank.

* Make objective npc's attempt to warp off when in structure if not tackled. Forcing a more realistic use of midslots

* Randomize absolutely EVERYTHING that can be randomized. Eve doesn't have graphical dungeons that need to look good, making everything random shouldn't be that hard and would ruin all those horrible mission guide sites.

* Increase the need for awareness in missions with things like Logi npc's. Generally try to make the missions so that if you're not paying attention, you will lose your damn ship, even if its bling as ****. To reward being bling you could make the missions so that you can clear them really quickly if you're ready to take on a lot more incoming dps than you would through a slower approach with things like going straight for the objective, causing mass aggro.. Or something of the sort. Just generally make missions less... relaxing..

* Make the AI smart enough to react to your ship.. If you're in a missile boat they should stay at their optimal keeping their velocity as high as possible, if you're in a turret boat they should come in close and maximize transversal.

* Make lvl 4 missions so that you can do them with relatively low sp at a slow pace but make them so that if you want to do them quickly you need good sp, a good fit and some actual skill.


For Incursions:

Again.. Randomize more, they are way too ******* predictable and its always just doing the EXACT same thing over and over again. Throw in rare npc spawns that make the room much more difficult or just play different, randomize npc numbers and type some.. Just generally make it less predictable.

Tripple their length/reward. I get that the whole quick dungeon thing was a part of the design but there is absolutely no activity that takes 5 minutes to finish that doesn't really quickly turn into a grind.

Make the profitable ones harder... Seriously they are really really really easy to do, all of them. Hell we did a Oroboros site in ls with a sub optimal pvp fleet that was so small we didn't even get any isk for the site and we were never in any real danger.. it really shouldn't be that easy..


^^^This pretty much.

Because currently Pve is about as exciting as driving a nail into your ****.

Every friggin mission is predictable, once you run it once, you know the lyrics, the lines and actors. It sucks. It works well for bots or the mindless, but ffs, shake things up a bit.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#40 - 2013-08-27 15:45:50 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ali Aras wrote:
I think this thread is probably the one for the biggest activity. Got anything you want to say about PvE in EVE? (A: probably yes). POST HERE!


Its awful..

All of it..

Even the best pve things in Eve turn into a complete grind after a couple of hours.

I would suggest

Scrap the mission system entirely and make a new one based around randomized content, evolving dungeons and what not (Would be really cool for examples if npc's in a area would slowly adjust to the general meta in that area in terms of Res, damage types and ewar). Its too out dated and bad to fix. ...)


I disagree with that. PvE could be expanded and provide more gameplay as long as the current mission system co-existed with the new PvE content; some people just need a reliable source of income, with known risks and rewards, and also some players play for relax.

So rather than scrap everything and start anew, just extend PvE beyond the current dead ends, make it dynamic and player-generated for those willing to take a bigger challenge and a more active role as content generators... but keep the old playground too.

I run your missions, you run my missions, we both win. We both generate a challenge and also take it. And when we grow tired or want to relax or increase standings, we visit our favorite agent and get some of those old fashioned missions. No need to tell mission runenrs "hey, you know those 2 years worth of SP? They're wasted now, kiss our ass and love it!"

BTW, after seeing what has been going on with exploration, I would strongly suggest that CCP checked any PvE changes with people currently using PvE content. Exploration for non-explorers is awful enough...P


Adding more PVE content to cover over how awful the content we have now is would be a terrible solution.. Would likely just compound on the problem.

And what are these "Mission only" skills you would be wasting? Because there are no skills that only help you with missions.. All the support skills that are important for mission running are important for everything combat related in eve. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish