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The problem with removing local

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Sigras
Conglomo
#141 - 2013-08-24 22:01:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Sigras wrote:
These are the words of someone who has never done any ratting in 0.0 especially with the new AI that switches targets to your drones, moving away from your sentrys is a dismal idea.

You have never done any ratting in guristas space or sanshas space if you think short ranged weapons + staying aligned is an option.

The fact that people in 0.0 would be reduced to using terrible ranged fits and have a super high chance of getting ganked with no warning means that it isnt nearly worth the reward you get out there.

A few small observations may be in order.

Null is not intended as the best place for casual or solo play. If you need to compromise in order to meet the needs of the area, not getting enough to make it worth the effort is hardly surprising.

Casual and solo play is best enabled in high sec, where lesser safeguards can get you lesser rewards, but more reliably.

If you can get together for team play, then null should be able to offer you better options than high sec.

Null offers better rewards to compensate for the additional effort and compromises expected to be needed, not so it becomes the go-to cash cow area of the game to be farmed.

It really is supposed to be harder than high sec, and not just over long term averages.

I have three objections to your observations:

1. I understand that compromises need to be made, but the problem with that is reward scaling. If you make the rewards scale so that the people making those sacrifices are still making good money, then it becomes unbalanced when a group like Goonswarm owns a ton of space and doesnt have to worry about titan bridging into their space and can use fits that dont compromise anything.

2. team play doesnt prevent or even help avoid a titan drop gank . . . unless you consider team play you and 249 of your closest friends . . .

3. The current PvE structure in 0.0 doesnt encourage team play. The toughest anomalies need to be done solo to compete with level 4s, and plexes give out usually 1 very valuable item so you have to sell it and split the isk.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#142 - 2013-08-25 01:54:48 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Sigras wrote:
These are the words of someone who has never done any ratting in 0.0 especially with the new AI that switches targets to your drones, moving away from your sentrys is a dismal idea.

You have never done any ratting in guristas space or sanshas space if you think short ranged weapons + staying aligned is an option.

The fact that people in 0.0 would be reduced to using terrible ranged fits and have a super high chance of getting ganked with no warning means that it isnt nearly worth the reward you get out there.

A few small observations may be in order.

Null is not intended as the best place for casual or solo play. If you need to compromise in order to meet the needs of the area, not getting enough to make it worth the effort is hardly surprising.

Casual and solo play is best enabled in high sec, where lesser safeguards can get you lesser rewards, but more reliably.

If you can get together for team play, then null should be able to offer you better options than high sec.

Null offers better rewards to compensate for the additional effort and compromises expected to be needed, not so it becomes the go-to cash cow area of the game to be farmed.

It really is supposed to be harder than high sec, and not just over long term averages.

I have three objections to your observations:

1. I understand that compromises need to be made, but the problem with that is reward scaling. If you make the rewards scale so that the people making those sacrifices are still making good money, then it becomes unbalanced when a group like Goonswarm owns a ton of space and doesnt have to worry about titan bridging into their space and can use fits that dont compromise anything.

2. team play doesnt prevent or even help avoid a titan drop gank . . . unless you consider team play you and 249 of your closest friends . . .

3. The current PvE structure in 0.0 doesnt encourage team play. The toughest anomalies need to be done solo to compete with level 4s, and plexes give out usually 1 very valuable item so you have to sell it and split the isk.

Thus confirming rewards are balanced poorly with risk.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#143 - 2013-08-25 05:00:31 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Sigras wrote:
except for the fact that a cloaked ship can bump you leaving you less than 1 second response time to warp off

Also, having to be aligned eliminates blasters, autocannons, pulse lasers, HAMs and sentry drones from viability while ratting

Also it is impossible to do any hacking or archaeology sites, or gas mining while aligned . . . should we take those out of 0.0?


I have never seen a cloaked ship enter system, find the ratter, bump, him, have his buddies land on grid and kill the ratter.

I suppose it could happen, but given the current game mechanics if you are not in warp when a hostile enter systems or within a second thereafter you need to change how you are ratting.

That's because local exists, this entire thread is about if local didnt exist.

But im sure that if local didnt exist, I would be alerted to the presence of a cloaked ship by my directional scann . . . oh wait Roll

Well at least I could use probe . . . oh . . . no that wont work either Roll

please at least read the OP before commenting.

Teckos Pech wrote:
And having to be aligned does not eliminate HAMs or sentries. You just have to be judicious in their use. You might have to have warp outs on either side of the site you are ratting. Same could work for short range guns too, but I'd test ti first on Sisi, again grap some friends, set up some safes near a ratting spot and get to work, have your buddies come in and see how often you get caught.

As for sentries...leave them. Yes, the T2 ain't cheap...but they are a damn sight cheaper than your ship. So warp off. Leave the sentries.

This is not high sec. You are not running level 4s. You are in null and ratting where anyone not blue is a potential threat.

These are the words of someone who has never done any ratting in 0.0 especially with the new AI that switches targets to your drones, moving away from your sentrys is a dismal idea.

You have never done any ratting in guristas space or sanshas space if you think short ranged weapons + staying aligned is an option.

The fact that people in 0.0 would be reduced to using terrible ranged fits and have a super high chance of getting ganked with no warning means that it isnt nearly worth the reward you get out there.


I read the OP, and why would a cloaked ship bump you when it can simply point you? The Arazu is awesome as it can fit both a scram and disruptor and have really nice range with both.

Complain about something actually being a reasonable threat, then we can go from there. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#144 - 2013-08-25 05:09:37 UTC
Sigras wrote:

These are the words of someone who has never done any ratting in 0.0 especially with the new AI that switches targets to your drones, moving away from your sentrys is a dismal idea.

You have never done any ratting in guristas space or sanshas space if you think short ranged weapons + staying aligned is an option.

The fact that people in 0.0 would be reduced to using terrible ranged fits and have a super high chance of getting ganked with no warning means that it isnt nearly worth the reward you get out there.


Have you stopped to consider that the current situation is because of the current mechanics? No, I bet you did not.

See, ratting in null is safe. One of the safest activities you can do if you have a half way decent intel system, maybe an alt scouting for you, and local. Given these things you should rarely if ever die.

Given the low risk...you get low rewards. Or at least things like CCP trying to make obtaining the rewards of null harder.

Making null even safer, is not the route because the next step, if you have not been paying attention to the game, will be for the rewards from living in null to get whacked again with the nerf bat.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#145 - 2013-08-25 06:35:17 UTC
Lets see what was the answer I usualy get... oh yes this was it.

There is no problem.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#146 - 2013-08-25 06:40:54 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Have you stopped to consider that the current situation is because of the current mechanics? No, I bet you did not.

See, ratting in null is safe. One of the safest activities you can do if you have a half way decent intel system, maybe an alt scouting for you, and local. Given these things you should rarely if ever die.

Given the low risk...you get low rewards. Or at least things like CCP trying to make obtaining the rewards of null harder.

Making null even safer, is not the route because the next step, if you have not been paying attention to the game, will be for the rewards from living in null to get whacked again with the nerf bat.


Other than tech moons, which have no relevance to individual or small group safety, 0.0 has been made more lucrative, not nerfed. Infinite anoms that you can score 75m/hour from and outperform level 4s are a far cry from the old system of belt ratting and highly-dangerous exploration.
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#147 - 2013-08-25 06:49:32 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Have you stopped to consider that the current situation is because of the current mechanics? No, I bet you did not.

See, ratting in null is safe. One of the safest activities you can do if you have a half way decent intel system, maybe an alt scouting for you, and local. Given these things you should rarely if ever die.

Given the low risk...you get low rewards. Or at least things like CCP trying to make obtaining the rewards of null harder.

Making null even safer, is not the route because the next step, if you have not been paying attention to the game, will be for the rewards from living in null to get whacked again with the nerf bat.


Other than tech moons, which have no relevance to individual or small group safety, 0.0 has been made more lucrative, not nerfed. Infinite anoms that you can score 75m/hour from and outperform level 4s are a far cry from the old system of belt ratting and highly-dangerous exploration.


75m / h... thats rubbish. I'm making 180m / h Twisted

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#148 - 2013-08-25 11:08:34 UTC
Null like wormholes. but with option to expand the system making local work? Shocked

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#149 - 2013-08-25 15:28:46 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Have you stopped to consider that the current situation is because of the current mechanics? No, I bet you did not.

See, ratting in null is safe. One of the safest activities you can do if you have a half way decent intel system, maybe an alt scouting for you, and local. Given these things you should rarely if ever die.

Given the low risk...you get low rewards. Or at least things like CCP trying to make obtaining the rewards of null harder.

Making null even safer, is not the route because the next step, if you have not been paying attention to the game, will be for the rewards from living in null to get whacked again with the nerf bat.


Other than tech moons, which have no relevance to individual or small group safety, 0.0 has been made more lucrative, not nerfed. Infinite anoms that you can score 75m/hour from and outperform level 4s are a far cry from the old system of belt ratting and highly-dangerous exploration.


No. There are not infinite anything in the game. And there used to be more anomalies than there are now, lots more.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sigras
Conglomo
#150 - 2013-08-26 20:30:32 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
I read the OP, and why would a cloaked ship bump you when it can simply point you? The Arazu is awesome as it can fit both a scram and disruptor and have really nice range with both.

Complain about something actually being a reasonable threat, then we can go from there. Roll

A cloaked ship would bump you if you were aligned to warp out. They would then have enough time to lock you and warp scramble you

This means that even a ship that is aligned out can be killed if he doesnt react in < 0.5 seconds therefore there is no defense against cloaked ships if local is removed.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#151 - 2013-08-26 21:14:44 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I read the OP, and why would a cloaked ship bump you when it can simply point you? The Arazu is awesome as it can fit both a scram and disruptor and have really nice range with both.

Complain about something actually being a reasonable threat, then we can go from there. Roll

A cloaked ship would bump you if you were aligned to warp out. They would then have enough time to lock you and warp scramble you

This means that even a ship that is aligned out can be killed if he doesnt react in < 0.5 seconds therefore there is no defense against cloaked ships if local is removed.

If you change the dynamic, in this case by removing local, you need to stop thinking in the version where local exists too.

First off, aligning to warp as a defense tactic is only practical if you expect reliable intel to arrive before a hostile can react by bumping, or anything else that would prevent your escape.

You either make the effort to get the intel before you need it, or you admit you need help to do this.
Your other options are to NOT need the intel, but to expect to either stand your ground, or not be found in the first place.

For these, you either fit to fight, or use stealth. If you fit to fight, you could not care less if you are found. You either have a gimmick ready to crush your opponent, or you can disable them and just leave.
(ECM jamming plus webs means they can't lock or bump you as you casually warp out)
Now, if they are able to anticipate this fit and counter it, the next logical step is to have backup.

If you use stealth, then you position yourself in a system outside of dscan range, and have probes monitoring the direction you will be approached from. Get familiar with the empty scan return, so you spot the newcomer right away.
This is assuming you don't have either a second account, or friends willing to gate sit for you, and you are solo.
Detecting a target? Cloak up. Keep probing till it looks like they left, and maintain watch in case they seem to return.
Watch for more probes appearing, in case they catch on and try to turn the tables.

Neither of these fitting options are min maxxing, but if you want to solo in null without at least an intel channel to help with, sacrifices are called for.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Sigras
Conglomo
#152 - 2013-08-26 22:33:14 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Sigras wrote:
These are the words of someone who has never done any ratting in 0.0 especially with the new AI that switches targets to your drones, moving away from your sentrys is a dismal idea.

You have never done any ratting in guristas space or sanshas space if you think short ranged weapons + staying aligned is an option.

The fact that people in 0.0 would be reduced to using terrible ranged fits and have a super high chance of getting ganked with no warning means that it isnt nearly worth the reward you get out there.

A few small observations may be in order.

Null is not intended as the best place for casual or solo play. If you need to compromise in order to meet the needs of the area, not getting enough to make it worth the effort is hardly surprising.

Casual and solo play is best enabled in high sec, where lesser safeguards can get you lesser rewards, but more reliably.

If you can get together for team play, then null should be able to offer you better options than high sec.

Null offers better rewards to compensate for the additional effort and compromises expected to be needed, not so it becomes the go-to cash cow area of the game to be farmed.

It really is supposed to be harder than high sec, and not just over long term averages.

I have three objections to your observations:

1. I understand that compromises need to be made, but the problem with that is reward scaling. If you make the rewards scale so that the people making those sacrifices are still making good money, then it becomes unbalanced when a group like Goonswarm owns a ton of space and doesnt have to worry about titan bridging into their space and can use fits that dont compromise anything.

2. team play doesnt prevent or even help avoid a titan drop gank . . . unless you consider team play you and 249 of your closest friends . . .

3. The current PvE structure in 0.0 doesnt encourage team play. The toughest anomalies need to be done solo to compete with level 4s, and plexes give out usually 1 very valuable item so you have to sell it and split the isk.

Thus confirming rewards are balanced poorly with risk.

My argument is that they cannot balance the risk with the rewards. The problem is that in 90% of 0.0 has huge amounts of risk, because of the ever present danger of a titan hot drop or a blopdrop.

That being said, you cant simply scale the rewards up super high to compensate for the high risk because of systems like RG9-7U which has zero risk of a titan hot drop because all of the systems in range of that one are also controlled by the GSF. Even cyno jammed systems would totally throw the balance off.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#153 - 2013-08-27 02:06:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Sigras wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I read the OP, and why would a cloaked ship bump you when it can simply point you? The Arazu is awesome as it can fit both a scram and disruptor and have really nice range with both.

Complain about something actually being a reasonable threat, then we can go from there. Roll

A cloaked ship would bump you if you were aligned to warp out. They would then have enough time to lock you and warp scramble you

This means that even a ship that is aligned out can be killed if he doesnt react in < 0.5 seconds therefore there is no defense against cloaked ships if local is removed.


As Nikk said, most of us who favor some sort of change to local also favor a contemporaneous change to cloaking mechanics as well.

Quote:

My argument is that they cannot balance the risk with the rewards. The problem is that in 90% of 0.0 has huge amounts of risk, because of the ever present danger of a titan hot drop or a blopdrop.

That being said, you cant simply scale the rewards up super high to compensate for the high risk because of systems like RG9-7U which has zero risk of a titan hot drop because all of the systems in range of that one are also controlled by the GSF. Even cyno jammed systems would totally throw the balance off.


You are thinking about this all wrong. The balance isn't avoiding any and all ship losses for the PvE pilot, but make the rewards sufficient so that the PvE pilot can still earn "good isk" even with the occasional ship loss. In other words, you have to look at the over all picture and balance expected gains vs. expected losses. At the very least the expected losses should be equal to the expected gains. That is the bare minimum. Ideally, you'd have it so that most PvE pilots would earn more than they lose, on average.

Right now the current mechanic for intel, local, makes it so that avoiding losses is relatively easy, even with titan hotdrops and BLOPs.

By the way, regarding RG9-7U, it should probably have its rewards looked at again in light of this. Giving it high true sec and thus high rewards and having it be out of BLOPs/Titan bridge range makes it a very valuable system. Of course, I suppose that could be seen as a conflict driver, but I find such a claim dubious.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#154 - 2013-08-27 03:53:19 UTC
Cloaky ships is one of the frequently raised issues, as per the sticky post by CCP Stillman at the top of this forum. The issue has been around since cloaking was introduced.

This thread is flogging to death the idea of flogging the dead horse.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
CCP Falcon
#155 - 2013-08-27 10:46:51 UTC
This thread is being locked as a duplicate.

There are plenty of threads already created in relation to both AFK cloaking and the removal of local that can be contributed to without further threads being opened.

Locked.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

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