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Capsuleers having prosthetic bodies rather than biological clones?

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Author
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#1 - 2013-07-02 18:38:57 UTC
This just occurred to me. Rather than capsuleers having clones that are reportedly grown from biological waste for some reason, why not just have completely prosthetic bodies? That Zainou founder had his brain transferred to a computer or something.

One argument against that idea is something similar to organ rejection. Perhaps the physical human brain cannot tolerate itself existing in a non-biological body? Of course, this might not be a universal 'fact', but there might be a large percentage of individuals where this applies. That way, it's easy for capsuleers to say they are completely prosthetic if they want, or if they still utilize biological clones.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#2 - 2013-07-02 22:33:02 UTC
It's probably a lot easier to grow a biological body than build a prosthetic one.
Valiethuar Rahoeskilurn
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-07-03 01:22:07 UTC
Can't see how all those immortal capsuleers could reproduce in prosthetic bodies. Besides; how would you be able to smell or touch or feel?
Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#4 - 2013-07-03 11:11:58 UTC
We have few indications as to the kind of technology present in the prosthetics industry in EVE, aside from body modder culture in TBL and a few chronicled tales of bionics to replace lost limbs. It may be possible that a completely prosthetic body is possible, as one character is noted as having been completely modified, with the exception of his brain and skin (of which he was exceptionally proud/vain). So it is certainly possible to have an almost complete prosthetic body, but the state of the technology in use is very much in question.

The issue we get here is compatibility. It may not be possible to directly map the nervous system, instead using a brain-stem 'hack' to provide equivalent enough results that with time you can adapt to your new body. This may cause issues with ill-understood, vary advanced interfacing technologies such as the capsule. The brain in the body is capable of interfacing with the pod, but without the organic nervous system, with the specialized genetic traits that prevent mindlock and the other fates that can kill the incompatible, a connection is impossible or at least, highly detrimental.

I would argue that the capsule is so specifically calibrated to human/near human use (in the case of Jovians), that an artificial body changes too many variables. Additionally, economic factors may come into play - cloning seems to be a very well explored area of research in new eden, and more than that, is a very lucrative business (to the point where Genolution and Cromeaux managed to get CONCORD to agree to enforce a mandatory cloning agreement if you wish to carry a capsuleer license). It is quite possible that with research, an artificial body is possible for capsuleers, but such technology is barred due to the cost, and existence of biological alternatives that are currently 'in vogue'.

Storing the consciousness in a 'save state', or even in a simulation (emulation?) of some form of cyber-world is beyond the realms of current understanding to describe. Thinking purely on the difference between physical experimentation and simulation in research, there is a vast difference between a modeled system and a physical system. In this case, the mind, freed of the brain, acts in a manner dictated by the system storing it. If that system is designed to simulate consciousness to allow prolonged life in this new domain, it is likely that processes extraneous to the perpetuation of that state are cut to save on processing power (and thus cost). Essentially, the mind is virtualised in a simulated reality, but as the mind is now 'software' running on a 'virtual machine' that represents only those parts of the brain responsible for ordering the neuronal processes at work, it is not a 'brain' as we understand it.

As the capsule interfaces with the brain, via the nervous system, not the ephemeral conceptualization of the self that we refer to as the mind, I posit that artificiality changes too many variables for it to be capsule compatible.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#5 - 2013-07-03 17:19:38 UTC
i dare to say capsuleers already use prosthetic bodies, not in the modern prosthetic way, but we have infomorphic capabilities, we replace bodies all the time, our original bodies are biomass now and we only keep changing from one body to the other as replacement. each time more advanced than the other. i think that sounds very prosthetic.
Untanas Volmyr
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-07-11 20:29:12 UTC
HM... So if a capsuleer wanted to. Could they transfer they're consciousness, memories, abilities into lets say... A geneticly modified goldfish? Suddenly can imagine an extensive variety of player portraits that are just bizzare. Forgive my tendacy to find comedy in everything. I can't help it. Hehe.

Murphy's Technology Law - If your not thoroughly confused. Then you were not thoroughly informed.

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#7 - 2013-07-23 05:45:42 UTC
Valiethuar Rahoeskilurn wrote:
Can't see how all those immortal capsuleers could reproduce in prosthetic bodies. Besides; how would you be able to smell or touch or feel?


Answer

Untanas Volmyr wrote:
Could they transfer they're consciousness, memories, abilities into lets say... A geneticly modified goldfish?


Answer

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

psychorapist
Thunderous Hemoroid Enterprises
#8 - 2013-08-23 20:19:16 UTC
I misread the title and opened the thread thinking it was about capsuleers having prostitute's body.

Left dissapointed.
CCP Falcon
#9 - 2013-08-26 15:35:28 UTC
The fundamental principle of joining the capsule and clone is based on the successful fusion of man and machine.

Man of course meaning a human being, regardless of gender. Biomass. Icky, gooey, blood and guts.

That's the entire point of being a capsuleer. All the benefits of still being "human" while being the best piece of technology to ever be plugged into a starship.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Azrin Stella Oerndotte
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-08-26 17:24:11 UTC
I remember either a chronicle and/or art where some capsuleers choose (or didn't care enough to hide it?) to display their robotic augmentations as such that they were likened to inhuman monsters, and that most choose to hide this behind a human facade.


Falcon, are those tattoos? I must have missed something.
Cade Windstalker
#11 - 2013-08-26 18:46:00 UTC
Azrin Stella Oerndotte wrote:
I remember either a chronicle and/or art where some capsuleers choose (or didn't care enough to hide it?) to display their robotic augmentations as such that they were likened to inhuman monsters, and that most choose to hide this behind a human facade.


Falcon, are those tattoos? I must have missed something.


I believe you are thinking of the Chronicle for Planetary Interaction where an Amarr Capsuleer is described as displaying himself as covered in augmentations. I believe the point behind the description though was more to drive home that the guy was talking to an avatar and not staring at a naked guy in a pod.
Azrin Stella Oerndotte
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-08-26 19:53:05 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Azrin Stella Oerndotte wrote:
I remember either a chronicle and/or art where some capsuleers choose (or didn't care enough to hide it?) to display their robotic augmentations as such that they were likened to inhuman monsters, and that most choose to hide this behind a human facade.


Falcon, are those tattoos? I must have missed something.


I believe you are thinking of the Chronicle for Planetary Interaction where an Amarr Capsuleer is described as displaying himself as covered in augmentations. I believe the point behind the description though was more to drive home that the guy was talking to an avatar and not staring at a naked guy in a pod.


I was thinking of this:

http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/newssystem/media/3034/3308/capsuleer_idealized_940.jpg

I can't remember if there was a chronicle too though.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-08-26 19:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
when you look at the technology of cloning in New Eden, the line between synthetic and organic gets blurry anyway.

The neurons of a clone's brain are by definition synthetic ones grown in place by a rapid process at the point of upload. Actual nerve cells can't do that, so what you've got is an artificial replica neuron that behaves in the exact same way, plus an addiitonal ability. Or maybe several. Synthetic Synapses are an actual commodity in EVE - you build them in PI. Presumably, a pod pilot's brain is 100% constructed from them. Maybe a bit less than that if the really old reptilian bits of the hind-brain responsible solely for the body's autonomic functions are left intact.

The old lore describes that the bones are a substance called "orthoplastic". throw in all the cybernetics and frankly the original biomass is relegated to just being the foundation on which the actual clone body is built. superconducting fibers in the nervous system, artificial myomeric polymers in the muscles, nanofilters in the kidneys, toxin denaturing agents distributed by a synthetic gland attached to the liver (anti-intoxicants excluded at the client's discretion), retinal implants that can overlay a HUD on the user's field of vision, nanotech reinforcement of respiratory system to allow it to cope with the viscosity of pod fluid. I figure, the higher your grade of clone, the further beyond baseline human performance you are, in discreet ways that are only noticeable when the pilot drinks a shot of strychnine with an antifreeze chaser and suffers no ill effects beyond the disgusting taste, or looks up your personal and professional history in half a second with a thought and a momentary glazed expression.

TL;DR - a capsuleer's body IS prosthetic. It's just that the state of play of prosthetics technology in New Eden is that rather than mucking around with metal and plastic, they have organic prosthetics.

You have to remember, New Eden is an insanely high-tech setting. The capsule contains a scanner which is capable, in nanoseconds of reading the precise shape, position, orientation and interrelation of every neuron in a human brain and burst-transmitting that to a receiver in less time than it takes a city-flattening laser weapon to atomize something roughly as large as a compact car, and only marginally more sturdy. That kind of bandwidth makes the entire FedEx fleet look like the hand-written correspondence between two arthritic old ladies.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#14 - 2013-08-27 17:29:51 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Azrin Stella Oerndotte wrote:
I remember either a chronicle and/or art where some capsuleers choose (or didn't care enough to hide it?) to display their robotic augmentations as such that they were likened to inhuman monsters, and that most choose to hide this behind a human facade.


Falcon, are those tattoos? I must have missed something.


I believe you are thinking of the Chronicle for Planetary Interaction where an Amarr Capsuleer is described as displaying himself as covered in augmentations. I believe the point behind the description though was more to drive home that the guy was talking to an avatar and not staring at a naked guy in a pod.



Or maybe the pilot wasn't even a capsuleer? There is another faction who might be interested in the resources of a planetary body... One who uses mechanical augmentation.. And dislikes humanity...

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-08-27 18:41:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Telegram Sam
Sansha's Nation is pretty good at prosthetics, of course. But do they have to technology to transfer a neural burn into an inorganic CPU-type thing? I'd guess that they don't. Could be a good premise for a fiction piece, though.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#16 - 2013-08-29 14:42:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
My "guess" is that despite the ability to do so, there are inherent pitfalls to such a transfer. One being the human brain's(psyche's) need for light (hint, hint), and sensory stimulation. i.e. circadian rythm

Vis a vis, the deep depression that many experience during the winter months, here on earth. Multiply that a thousand fold and you end up with something like the Jovian disease...

Imagine placing yourself into a sensory deprivation tank for many years. One might go mad....

So despite the vast amounts of synthetics used, the baseline is still nothing more than augmented human(carbon based life). And biomass, in a hugely overpopulated cluster, is cheap... Money still makes the world go 'round...

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Cade Windstalker
#17 - 2013-08-29 17:54:21 UTC
Roga Dracor wrote:

Or maybe the pilot wasn't even a capsuleer? There is another faction who might be interested in the resources of a planetary body... One who uses mechanical augmentation.. And dislikes humanity...


Nope, the planetary administrator flat out said he was a Capsuleer. Also the Jove are A. Human, just genetically modified, and B. Into genetic modification, not cybernetic mods.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#18 - 2013-08-29 19:02:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Never said he was Jovian, I implied a True Slave.. Don't believe the author stated anything definitively, no matter what the planetary administrator believed to be truth...

The latter, above post was in response to Sam's post about consciousness transfer to a machine.. And hints at something I am pretty certain of regarding other parts of the Sleeper "mystery"..

And you all think I'm hung up on the Jove, lol...

Why would a Capsuleer employ all the smoke and mirrors, when Concord gave Capsuleers free reign in PI? The simple fact that he was a Capsuleer would have cowed just about anyone... In reality, there was no need to subjugate an existing colony, no need to look like Jason X... While Nation would have to employ different methods to acquire planetary resources.. Much as they do other resources..

Seems to me the move was designed to keep Capsuleers away from baseline colonies..

In short, I was nudging friends still exploring the mystery down avenues I have already explored... P

If a mechanical body was superior to an organic one, would not the Jove have resorted to that path a long time ago, to save themselves? Why then, also, the organic appearance of their tech? Seems to me carbon based organic technology is superior in many ways.. Even Nation and the Rogue Drones appear to use it, to mankind's horror...

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Cade Windstalker
#19 - 2013-08-29 23:03:39 UTC
Roga Dracor wrote:
Never said he was Jovian, I implied a True Slave.. Don't believe the author stated anything definitively, no matter what the planetary administrator believed to be truth...

The latter, above post was in response to Sam's post about consciousness transfer to a machine.. And hints at something I am pretty certain of regarding other parts of the Sleeper "mystery"..

And you all think I'm hung up on the Jove, lol...

Why would a Capsuleer employ all the smoke and mirrors, when Concord gave Capsuleers free reign in PI? The simple fact that he was a Capsuleer would have cowed just about anyone... In reality, there was no need to subjugate an existing colony, no need to look like Jason X... While Nation would have to employ different methods to acquire planetary resources.. Much as they do other resources..

Seems to me the move was designed to keep Capsuleers away from baseline colonies..

In short, I was nudging friends still exploring the mystery down avenues I have already explored... P

If a mechanical body was superior to an organic one, would not the Jove have resorted to that path a long time ago, to save themselves? Why then, also, the organic appearance of their tech? Seems to me carbon based organic technology is superior in many ways.. Even Nation and the Rogue Drones appear to use it, to mankind's horror...


The author indicated it was a projection or simulation of some sort. Given some of the portraits I've seen in this game I'll believe people would want to look like any number of odd things :|

Also I find it rather hard to believe a True Slave would engage in PI...

I simply assumed Jove because of your wording and that being what jumped to mind as the most likely connection.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#20 - 2013-08-30 01:31:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Sansha's Nation requires the same resources as any other faction.. Given the timing of the chrons release, I rather think it was a True Slave, but, I have no concrete proof... Most communication in the cluster is holo projection.. Not that it matters either way, I suppose.. Until the author clarifies, it is all guess work.. Many of the chronicles are purposely vague..

And exactly, Nation would not engage in PI for itself. Too risky. They would threaten and cajole baseliners to do the work, as demonstrated in another chronicle concerning an asteroid mining station, I believe.. When the administrator refused to return to their service, they sent his own daughter, abducted and brainwashed years earlier, to kill him...

In Xenocracy (rule by xtraterrestrials\aliens\strangers?) the pilot seems to have little desire to do it himself, instead, he threatens to orbital the planet and drop his own PI equipment only if they don't cooperate... Why would a Capsuleer risk the wrath of Concord, already giving him license to "do it himself" for a single PI installation? Concord would certainly frown on Capsuleers performing orbital strikes on innocent, independant civilian facilities...

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

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