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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

First post First post
Author
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#581 - 2011-11-12 16:12:57 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Perdition64 wrote:
CCP Tallest, any plans on further developing the hybrid changes before patch day so they can actually make an impact come Winter?


Yes indeed. I was just about to post an update.

* Hybrid turret reload time will be 5 seconds.
* Hybrid ammo will be 50% smaller (and turret capacity reduced to keep same number of charges)
* Blaster damage +5% (except XL turrets)
* Railgun tracking +5% (except XL turrets)

..also, Hail falloff penalty will be 25%, not 0%.


Still not seeing this change on SiSi - any idea when it'll be there?
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#582 - 2011-11-12 16:32:06 UTC
Nikuno wrote:

Still not seeing this change on SiSi - any idea when it'll be there?


I hope it is okay if I qoute myself P

Hamox wrote:

Patience, give them two or three more years, they just started to work on it.

Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#583 - 2011-11-12 16:42:19 UTC
Gameplay now as a blaster boat pilot is like being the fish and the Minmatar the fisherman. The Fish decides to commit. The fisherman can decide to keep it or let it go.

Make our ships faster. Make our guns hit like hammers.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#584 - 2011-11-12 20:38:59 UTC
Jazz Styles wrote:
Voith wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
[quote=Jazz Styles]
Don't mess with armour plates and agility/mass penalties when the problem lies with the weapons.

Armor plates and agility and mass penalties are new to the game compare to the stats that the weapons have and were never balanced with them in mind. HENCE it might being a good idea to do so.


Why not just make some gallente ships shield tankers?

If Armor + Blasters doesn't work I would think trying Shield + Blasters should be tried before you fundamentally alter game mechanics.

There's a certain symmetry at the moment with Amarr and Gallente being primarily armour, and Minmatar and Caldari being shield focused (obviously matari ships are much more flexible). I think CCP are reluctant to change this dynamic, but its probably worth talking about at least.

Here's the thing tho: If we're talking big fleet battles? In order to make blasters useful at point-blank range, the ships are going to have to be ridiculously fast, since all three other races can engage at range with ease, and even then it throws fleet formations completely out the window.

I just don't see why blasters have to be so short on range when it clearly isn't working. I suspect that nothing short of a substantial range increase on blasters is going to make Gallente attractive outside of empire space.

Here's an idea, just double the optimal range across the board for blasters, maybe add a 25% falloff increase, lower damage and tracking by 10%-15% and see how it goes. It's a test server; let's test it out.

Some Amarr ships shield tank, hell some of them use Drones and some use HAMs.

Plenty of Minmatar ships can armor tank.

I agree that the symmetry (Active vs Passive; Shield vs Armor; etc)between the empires is good on paper, but I would prefer ship designs that succeed in Eve "as-is" vs "As was theorycrafted 8 years ago".

A few blasterboat with shield equivalent of Augoror HP bonus would could make gallente able to fill a role with out trying to regression test the balance changes to armor plates.

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#585 - 2011-11-12 21:04:39 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
Gameplay now as a blaster boat pilot is like being the fish and the Minmatar the fisherman. The Fish decides to commit. The fisherman can decide to keep it or let it go.

Make our ships faster. Make our guns hit like hammers.


this is why I was saying remove mass increase from metal plates altogether, replace it with a senor strength hit.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#586 - 2011-11-12 21:18:31 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
Gameplay now as a blaster boat pilot is like being the fish and the Minmatar the fisherman. The Fish decides to commit. The fisherman can decide to keep it or let it go.

Make our ships faster. Make our guns hit like hammers.


this is why I was saying remove mass increase from metal plates altogether, replace it with a senor strength hit.

Problem: Armor HACs.
Moana Pozzi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#587 - 2011-11-13 00:06:23 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
Gameplay now as a blaster boat pilot is like being the fish and the Minmatar the fisherman. The Fish decides to commit. The fisherman can decide to keep it or let it go.

Make our ships faster. Make our guns hit like hammers.


100% agree. Give gallente some "sprinting" to jump on the victim for showing what short-range power mean.
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#588 - 2011-11-13 00:54:00 UTC
Moana Pozzi wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
Gameplay now as a blaster boat pilot is like being the fish and the Minmatar the fisherman. The Fish decides to commit. The fisherman can decide to keep it or let it go.

Make our ships faster. Make our guns hit like hammers.


100% agree. Give gallente some "sprinting" to jump on the victim for showing what short-range power mean.


I proposed a way to implement this idea some pages back, I'll repeat it here since everybody seems to agree blasters don't work because you lack "sprinting" ability, as opposed to just increasing Gallente base speed (which would clash with Minmatar proposal).

Give Gallente blaster boats both a MWD bonus (like 15% more speed) and a penalty (30% increased capacitor usage). This way the MWD can be activated for a short period of time to rush to your target, without making Gallente OP since they won't be able to kite forever.

For the other boats that lean more towards drones, I would give either a good hybrid falloff bonus (like 15-20%) or drone damage bonus in exchange of less useful bonuses we currently see.

This way Gallente would have:

- Close-range boats that can dash towards an enemy and output damage at it's optimal without dying in the way
- More careful, carrier-like boats that can use their already huge armors and structure hit points without resorting to moving fast, where the blasters work more to deny close-range from enemies.
Sigras
Conglomo
#589 - 2011-11-13 01:47:22 UTC
interesting
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
#590 - 2011-11-13 02:32:41 UTC
Imrik86 wrote:
Moana Pozzi wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
Gameplay now as a blaster boat pilot is like being the fish and the Minmatar the fisherman. The Fish decides to commit. The fisherman can decide to keep it or let it go.

Make our ships faster. Make our guns hit like hammers.


100% agree. Give gallente some "sprinting" to jump on the victim for showing what short-range power mean.


I proposed a way to implement this idea some pages back, I'll repeat it here since everybody seems to agree blasters don't work because you lack "sprinting" ability, as opposed to just increasing Gallente base speed (which would clash with Minmatar proposal).

Give Gallente blaster boats both a MWD bonus (like 15% more speed) and a penalty (30% increased capacitor usage). This way the MWD can be activated for a short period of time to rush to your target, without making Gallente OP since they won't be able to kite forever.

For the other boats that lean more towards drones, I would give either a good hybrid falloff bonus (like 15-20%) or drone damage bonus in exchange of less useful bonuses we currently see.

This way Gallente would have:

- Close-range boats that can dash towards an enemy and output damage at it's optimal without dying in the way
- More careful, carrier-like boats that can use their already huge armors and structure hit points without resorting to moving fast, where the blasters work more to deny close-range from enemies.


It's just too complicated.

Dial back minnie speed a little
Buff blaster boat speed
Nerf blaster boat agility
BISH BASH BOSH
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#591 - 2011-11-13 03:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Imrik86
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Imrik86 wrote:
Moana Pozzi wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
Gameplay now as a blaster boat pilot is like being the fish and the Minmatar the fisherman. The Fish decides to commit. The fisherman can decide to keep it or let it go.

Make our ships faster. Make our guns hit like hammers.


100% agree. Give gallente some "sprinting" to jump on the victim for showing what short-range power mean.


I proposed a way to implement this idea some pages back, I'll repeat it here since everybody seems to agree blasters don't work because you lack "sprinting" ability, as opposed to just increasing Gallente base speed (which would clash with Minmatar proposal).

Give Gallente blaster boats both a MWD bonus (like 15% more speed) and a penalty (30% increased capacitor usage). This way the MWD can be activated for a short period of time to rush to your target, without making Gallente OP since they won't be able to kite forever.

For the other boats that lean more towards drones, I would give either a good hybrid falloff bonus (like 15-20%) or drone damage bonus in exchange of less useful bonuses we currently see.

This way Gallente would have:

- Close-range boats that can dash towards an enemy and output damage at it's optimal without dying in the way
- More careful, carrier-like boats that can use their already huge armors and structure hit points without resorting to moving fast, where the blasters work more to deny close-range from enemies.


It's just too complicated.

Dial back minnie speed a little
Buff blaster boat speed
Nerf blaster boat agility
BISH BASH BOSH


If you buff blaster boats base speed, people will just fit ACs and have a better kite boat than Minmatar itself. Nerfing Gallente agility also doesn't make sense at all, since they require good enough agility to orbit at the very tight range of blasters.

Again, what Gallente lacks is a way to be considerably faster for a brief period of time, just enough to get into blaster range, and be penalized on MWD capacitor usage to force a balance between cap drainage from sprinting vs. cap available to actually shoot the blasters. The MWD bonuses mentioned are a way to achieve this. It's just like the RoF bonus most Minmatar boats get or the capacitor bonuses to Amarr - it's the bonus that gives you an edge when you fly the boat the way it's intended to be flown.

Turning Gallente into Minmatar is not the answer to fix blasters. Also, you don't fix the game by nerfing Minmatar.
Sigras
Conglomo
#592 - 2011-11-13 04:03:20 UTC
what if they put in medium and small web drones into the game at 10% and 5% speed reduction respectively and just gave all blaster ships a slight buff to drone bay

and while you're at it, get rid of large web drones . . . really, theyre just taking up database space cause theyre not able to catch up to anything fast enough that you'd want to web anyway
To mare
Advanced Technology
#593 - 2011-11-13 04:22:25 UTC
Imrik86 wrote:

If you buff blaster boats base speed, people will just fit ACs and have a better kite boat than Minmatar itself. Nerfing Gallente agility also doesn't make sense at all, since they require good enough agility to orbit at the very tight range of blasters.

Again, what Gallente lacks is a way to be considerably faster for a brief period of time, just enough to get into blaster range, and be penalized on MWD capacitor usage to force a balance between cap drainage from sprinting vs. cap available to actually shoot the blasters. The MWD bonuses mentioned are a way to achieve this. It's just like the RoF bonus most Minmatar boats get or the capacitor bonuses to Amarr - it's the bonus that gives you an edge when you fly the boat the way it's intended to be flown.

Turning Gallente into Minmatar is not the answer to fix blasters. Also, you don't fix the game by nerfing Minmatar.



do you know you can overload your mwd?
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#594 - 2011-11-13 04:49:11 UTC
Imrik86 wrote:


If you buff blaster boats base speed, people will just fit ACs and have a better kite boat than Minmatar itself. Nerfing Gallente agility also doesn't make sense at all, since they require good enough agility to orbit at the very tight range of blasters.

Again, what Gallente lacks is a way to be considerably faster for a brief period of time, just enough to get into blaster range, and be penalized on MWD capacitor usage to force a balance between cap drainage from sprinting vs. cap available to actually shoot the blasters. The MWD bonuses mentioned are a way to achieve this. It's just like the RoF bonus most Minmatar boats get or the capacitor bonuses to Amarr - it's the bonus that gives you an edge when you fly the boat the way it's intended to be flown.

Turning Gallente into Minmatar is not the answer to fix blasters. Also, you don't fix the game by nerfing Minmatar.


First, some gallente ships already fit ACs because they are OP. Ishtars and Myrms.

Secondly, any solution that gives another bonus to a ship is not the solution. No one is going to add on another MWD bonus onto blaster boats.

Ok... we get a cap usage penalty for closing range. Thats cool. Minmatar in exchange should have cap usage on their guns and have a cap usage penalty for shooting in falloff, ya know... so they can't kite all day and won't be OP.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#595 - 2011-11-13 06:56:25 UTC
It seems like everyone agrees that blaster-equipped ships need some sort of significant tactical advantage over AC-equipped ships, but damage, range and speed buffs all have serious pros and cons - some which make blasters too much llike ACs and others which make Gallente ships too much like Minmatar ships. So, here's another suggestion for the fire:

How about making projectile ammo take up more space? Say, 400% larger. And reduce cargo space on Minmatar ships by about 50%?

Minmatar ships would be logically faster, due to smaller cargo holds (ie. less mass), and have good weapons to match their speed, but cannot carry nearly as much ammo as a blaster boat.

This would put a stricter limit on how long an AC ship can kite in a battle, before running out of ammo. And, it would put a tighter limit on the ability of Minnie pilots to simultaneously carry all damage types, which makes it more likely that a Minnie pilot could be caught without the optimal ammo for every encounter and range, or even run out of ammo completely. Ammo vs. cap charges would also become more of an issue - which is fair since Minmatar ships are a lot less cap hungry.

Now, this change still allows the solo Minmatar AC ship to keep a reasonable advantage in most one-on-one encounters with blaster boats, and leaves the Minmatar arty alpha strike capability intact, too, but gives the Minmatar projectile ships a larger disadvantage in extended or multi-ship combat, due to the greater possiblility of running out of ammo faster than the other racial ships or weapon types. It makes overall logistics more fun, too, since a Minmatar fleet/gang would need to bring along more ammo haulers, which would make for vulnerable targets of opportunity.

BTW - I got the basic idea for this suggestion from watching Clear Skies 3 (again).... :)

An alternative ammo-related suggestion (but requiring more coding work) would be to add mass to the ammo, with projectile ammo as the heaviest type. So, more ammo means a slower, less manueverable ship. As you use up ammo, your ship would be lighter - ie. faster and more manueverable.

An empty Minmatar AC ship would be faster than an empty Gallente blaster boat, but a fully loaded Minmatar AC ship would be slower than a fully loaded Gallente blaster boat, since projectile ammo would have greater mass than hybrid ammo. Somewhere in between, the ships would have the same speed. As a nice side effect, laser ships would have an added advantage of no speed/agility penalty, since they don't need to carry tons of ammo.

This change would force pilots to consider how much ammo to load, too, since it would compromise the speed/agility characteristics of the ship. It also makes ejecting your ammo into a viable combat tactic, if you need to kick up your speed/agility to catch someone, or to GTFO.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
#596 - 2011-11-13 10:35:33 UTC
Imrik86 wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:


It's just too complicated.

Dial back minnie speed a little
Buff blaster boat speed
Nerf blaster boat agility
BISH BASH BOSH


If you buff blaster boats base speed, people will just fit ACs and have a better kite boat than Minmatar itself. Nerfing Gallente agility also doesn't make sense at all, since they require good enough agility to orbit at the very tight range of blasters.

Again, what Gallente lacks is a way to be considerably faster for a brief period of time, just enough to get into blaster range, and be penalized on MWD capacitor usage to force a balance between cap drainage from sprinting vs. cap available to actually shoot the blasters. The MWD bonuses mentioned are a way to achieve this. It's just like the RoF bonus most Minmatar boats get or the capacitor bonuses to Amarr - it's the bonus that gives you an edge when you fly the boat the way it's intended to be flown.

Turning Gallente into Minmatar is not the answer to fix blasters. Also, you don't fix the game by nerfing Minmatar.


If you don't have agility but you do have high speed you can't really kite as you can't keep the speed in a turn or an orbit. Blaster boats aren't supposed to signature tank at close range they are simply supposed to utterly out damage anything else at close range. Remember, blaster boats tend to have a very fat arse (sig radius). Like I've said before. Agility is more important than speed when kiting.
Sigras
Conglomo
#597 - 2011-11-13 10:44:51 UTC
To mare wrote:
Imrik86 wrote:

If you buff blaster boats base speed, people will just fit ACs and have a better kite boat than Minmatar itself. Nerfing Gallente agility also doesn't make sense at all, since they require good enough agility to orbit at the very tight range of blasters.

Again, what Gallente lacks is a way to be considerably faster for a brief period of time, just enough to get into blaster range, and be penalized on MWD capacitor usage to force a balance between cap drainage from sprinting vs. cap available to actually shoot the blasters. The MWD bonuses mentioned are a way to achieve this. It's just like the RoF bonus most Minmatar boats get or the capacitor bonuses to Amarr - it's the bonus that gives you an edge when you fly the boat the way it's intended to be flown.

Turning Gallente into Minmatar is not the answer to fix blasters. Also, you don't fix the game by nerfing Minmatar.



do you know you can overload your mwd?

What if you got a bonus to MWD overloading on blaster ships? IE 15% bonus to overload effect of MWDs per level, that way blaster boats would be able to close that distance, but would be completely unable to rely on that effect long term, you could even make it 15% bonus to overload effect and heat production of MWDs per level, so they'd overheat faster but overload better.

Thoughts?
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#598 - 2011-11-13 12:33:00 UTC
I just want to quote the 2 best replies on the other thread becouse they hit the nail right on the head Big smile

Celebris Nexterra wrote:
Hmmm, I am now motivated to make a stupidly simple analogy for what you're saying about blasters vs all other weapon types.

You give a person a shotgun (Gallente ship with blasters), you give the opponent an assault rifle (Minmatar ship with AC's). You place these two people in an open field at 50m (any place in space where the ships do not land on top of each other). The person with the shotgun is actually Aretha Franklin, while the person with the AR is Usain Bolt. Usain is able to run at full speed while shooting his gun and never missing, while Aretha "runs" while shooting and never hitting. Sure, it'll take a few hits before she goes down, but she has absolutely no chance to ever hit her target. NOW BOOST HER SPEED BY 10%!!!!

And you tell me this is fair?



thoth rothschild wrote:
Let's get back to Aretha Franklin with her shotgun and Usain Bolt and his M16


What can Aretha do to survive this fight ?

- Hide in fog (if not toxic)
- Get another Weapon (a walther ppk is not an option!)
- Get Inside a jeep with a mashine gun
- lay out traps for Mr Bolt (remind that this is not allowed inside a shopping mall!)

Giving Aretha the ability to spin faster and removing the need to reload her shotgun won't help ^^


P.S.: Watching Bolt orbiting a spinning Aretha looks pretty silly!
Tertius Caedes
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#599 - 2011-11-13 13:25:27 UTC
If you fight with a blasterboat you need to be in scram range. This is a big Problem, especially when you get baited.
What about to make Gallente Ships imun against scrams ? Then they have a good role in my view.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#600 - 2011-11-13 13:49:24 UTC
Since we do not know if anybody from the devs is reading this thread how about that:
We all rename our Gallente Boats to Aretha Franklin as a Protest?
Maybe one day they will ask why there are so many boats with this name?