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Peace is Boring

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Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-08-25 15:27:50 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Anna Karhunen wrote:
So... go talk to your superiors and Goons and get that war rolling. Shouting for it here in General Discussion won't get you anywhere.

You know, for a change of pace someone else could be the aggressor. Smile

Well, N3 does exist to destroy GSF.

They came through in a HAC gang yesterday, but by the time I'd heard of it they were gone.

And this is exactly illustrative of the problem I am describing. Those guys came through looking for a fight. What did they get? I think they killed one cyno ship, and one guy in a shuttle. Had they lingered, I would have been happy to fight them. But why should they linger? They have no reason to believe that by lingering they will meet a relatively even force, and every minute they linger is another minute of boredom for them.

War fixes this by presenting the aggressor with a forward base near enough to the enemy that brawls can happen.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#22 - 2013-08-25 15:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Alphea Abbra
Lyris Nairn wrote:
This is a thread about solutions (...) only one solution: War. (...) we both find the game more engrossing and enjoyable when there are many things to do and many things to shoot. Is this not true of you, as well of me?
I don't find the shooting-part to necessarily be the most exciting thing, as it is simply the culmination of the politics and continuation of diplomacy with other means. The interaction between individuals and organisations are really interesting phenomenon to me.
But the question of war, from your POV, is a bit of a non-sequiter to me.

Goonswarm Federation, somewhat in contrast to its earlier appearances, has made diplomacy its forte. If you find the YT video of "Mittanis Art of War" he focuses a lot on the diplomacy side of things. All the time he spent on the meta-side of the war, espionage, resource denial, wedges etc., he also paid a lot of homage to allies and the importance of them. Correct me if I am wrong, but did GoonSwarm have as long a list of allies before 49-, over an equally long list of conquered regions, as GSF have now after Fountain?
If you like war more than security, you can always learn something from Raiden. or Nothern Coalition., I'm sure.

The thing is you don't have to play the diplomacy game if you don't want to. Absorbing, removing or destroying ideological, historical or territorial enemies will soon only leave you with people you are not allowed to shoot. If you so desire to shoot people, I invite you to look at Branch, Tenal or Tribute, three regions where your territorial, historical and ideological enemies (Respectively) no longer live.
If you so much want the war, and so little desire to travel across 7+ regions for it, bring it to your doorstep.

In the words of a personal hero: "Only you can prevent the wildfire (of blobs, shoot a blue today)."
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#23 - 2013-08-25 15:30:11 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Na Und wrote:
Thank you for sharing. Is there a newsletter? I'd like to subscribe.

I realize this isn't exactly a new sentiment, and that's kind of my point.

Most of the entities in this game claim to enjoy fighting to some degree more than they enjoy the trappings of success. Battle reports across the game love to crow about good fights, about killboard stats, and so on. While those particular metrics of fun or success do not generally matter to me or to most goons the alternative is a boring peace where the only action in a given day is a small roaming gang that comes through and leaves before anyone can be bothered to report it much less form up and fight it.

Fear, according to Frank Herbert's Dune, is the mind-killer. I disagree: it's boredom.

This is a game about spaceships and space men shooting each other in space! We should be moving on from the Fountain Campaign to the next. War brings with it multiple fleets per day, of various doctrines, that everyone from a day old newbie to a bitter veteran can join or command. That sort of thing is good for the game, good for the economy, good for the press, and so on. In short, everyone wins when everyone is fighting (except for the loser, but no one likes a loser anyway). War brings with it a reason to log in, a reason to have several covops and scout accounts subscribed, and in general things to do that are much more emergent and engaging than PVE content can provide.

So let's have a war!


Talk to the business managers running your alliance.
They will tell you when the next income stream presents it for exploitation.

Juts hope you are getting your fair share of the rewards, or do you let said business managers tell you what is "fair"?

Beyond having enough space money to keep all of my account subscribed via PLEX (~6B/mo) and pay for whatever ships I need or want, there is very little utility in having even more money. Who cares if I don't get a "fair" share of the spoils? The only thing I would do with more money than I have would be to invest it into intra-Alliance loans so that I would then have even more money that I could only possibly use to invest into other things, ad infinitum. To what end? Having even more money wouldn't exactly change my gameplay options.


Interesting...your business managers seem to have a different opinion about the acquisition of in-game wealth.
Perhaps they have different uses for it than you.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-08-25 15:34:05 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Na Und wrote:
Thank you for sharing. Is there a newsletter? I'd like to subscribe.

I realize this isn't exactly a new sentiment, and that's kind of my point.

Most of the entities in this game claim to enjoy fighting to some degree more than they enjoy the trappings of success. Battle reports across the game love to crow about good fights, about killboard stats, and so on. While those particular metrics of fun or success do not generally matter to me or to most goons the alternative is a boring peace where the only action in a given day is a small roaming gang that comes through and leaves before anyone can be bothered to report it much less form up and fight it.

Fear, according to Frank Herbert's Dune, is the mind-killer. I disagree: it's boredom.

This is a game about spaceships and space men shooting each other in space! We should be moving on from the Fountain Campaign to the next. War brings with it multiple fleets per day, of various doctrines, that everyone from a day old newbie to a bitter veteran can join or command. That sort of thing is good for the game, good for the economy, good for the press, and so on. In short, everyone wins when everyone is fighting (except for the loser, but no one likes a loser anyway). War brings with it a reason to log in, a reason to have several covops and scout accounts subscribed, and in general things to do that are much more emergent and engaging than PVE content can provide.

So let's have a war!


Talk to the business managers running your alliance.
They will tell you when the next income stream presents it for exploitation.

Juts hope you are getting your fair share of the rewards, or do you let said business managers tell you what is "fair"?

Beyond having enough space money to keep all of my account subscribed via PLEX (~6B/mo) and pay for whatever ships I need or want, there is very little utility in having even more money. Who cares if I don't get a "fair" share of the spoils? The only thing I would do with more money than I have would be to invest it into intra-Alliance loans so that I would then have even more money that I could only possibly use to invest into other things, ad infinitum. To what end? Having even more money wouldn't exactly change my gameplay options.


Interesting...your business managers seem to have a different opinion about the acquisition of in-game wealth.
Perhaps they have different uses for it than you.

Definitely! Our business managers have to allocate funds for subsidized capitals (we're too poor to afford supercapitals), reimbursement programs, staggeringly high sov bills, fuel for jump bridges and pos, etc. As for me? A few billion ISK more per month would just increase the number in my wallet.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-08-25 15:40:25 UTC
Don't you have your own forums that might be viewed by upper managment?

I mean there is nothing wrong telling GD, but I don't think it will acheive anything other than "Grrr Goons" posts.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-08-25 15:43:03 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Don't you have your own forums that might be viewed by upper managment?

I mean there is nothing wrong telling GD, but I don't think it will acheive anything other than "Grrr Goons" posts.

I am curious as to why you think only one party (GSF) needs to be addressed here. There are numerous other entities who might choose to be the aggressor against GSF, which a post on our internal forums would not address.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#27 - 2013-08-25 15:44:56 UTC
Blueballing is the most effective strategy in the game. You're fighting a war right now and you don't even realize it!
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-08-25 16:01:03 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Blueballing is the most effective strategy in the game. You're fighting a war right now and you don't even realize it!

I am sure that between my ten accounts I will be strung up as a war criminal on the day the Guristas Pirates finally depose us from VFK.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Durlan Katz
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-08-25 16:07:57 UTC
Is this just a thinly veiled, "Come At Me Bro," then?
Osileon Yoshimeru
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-08-25 16:22:13 UTC
tldr:

Just make some mock wars. Im sure you can sacrifice a few supers.

You said it yourself how spoils of war is great and all. Do some fleet training and burn some of that isk off while you wait for next war. You can try out new tactics and stuff you weren't really sure of doing during a real war.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-08-25 16:33:59 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Interesting...your business managers seem to have a different opinion about the acquisition of in-game wealth.
Perhaps they have different uses for it than you.


Hey maybe you should start an alliance with promises of ~fair~ income distribution and steamroll everyone else out of nullsec

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tron 3K
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-08-25 19:50:01 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Anna Karhunen wrote:
So... go talk to your superiors and Goons and get that war rolling. Shouting for it here in General Discussion won't get you anywhere.

You know, for a change of pace someone else could be the aggressor. Smile

Yes who wants to take their shot at a blob.. Maybe break up your alliance and duke it out with them for fun. Why you need all those people anyways.
Prince Kobol
#33 - 2013-08-25 19:54:08 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
There needs to be another war soon. Peace makes for little reason to log in but to amass space money. Having the spoils of war is great, and everyone appreciates them; but, most of the fun in this curiously excellent spaceship sandbox is in the actual taking rather than in the having.


Then instead of setting people blue and paying them a ton of isk i.e BL, try killing them instead :)
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-08-25 20:24:56 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Then instead of setting people blue and paying them a ton of isk i.e BL, try killing them instead :)


People who lose wars shouldn't pretend to have valuable input for those who win them

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Hans Zwaardhandler
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#35 - 2013-08-25 20:32:39 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Sakaron Hefdover wrote:
Go shoot something then.

EDIT: I was a bit vague there, Most of the content is created by action, not sitting around. Stop being lead and start leading.

Yourself, a group, whatever, no point sitting around and doing nothing. Go live up the goonies name and kill something


Day trips across several regions of space to harass an enemy are not fun for either party.

For the aggressor, it is a long and boring slog across a huge expanse of space with the promise of maybe. Maybe the aggressor will find and kill some renters who are ratting or mining; maybe the aggressor will stumble across a home defense fleet and have a brawl; or, most likely, everyone will safe up and ignore the aggressor until they get bored and go home. This is a somewhat infrequent occurrence, exactly because it stands so likely to end in boredom. Some groups, both within my alliance and in hostile alliance, undertake covert (or overt) deployments to enemy space and hotdrop them; but, even that is a bunch of sitting around and waiting for something to maybe happen, and it is very restrictive for what else someone can be doing. Newbies especially, and those people with only a single account, are hard-pressed to find something fun to do during peacetime exactly because of this.

War on the other hand is entirely different.

Once a war effort has been mobilized, there are things to do all day every day. Most days during the Fountain Campaign there were a dozen or more fleets that were formed up, and every form up was either to attack an objective or fight a hostile fleet. You could call a war theater a target rich environment: once deployed, on a large scale, there are enough things to shoot and enough people nearby and ready to shoot them that things can be shot more often than they cannot. Whether a member of the aggressor or defender forces, a player in a war theater has things to do. And because there are things to do, more people show up and in turn there occur even more things to do.

War is great, because everyone from brand new players to seasoned line members to fleet commanders have something to do pretty much whenever they log in. Peace is boring in that the opposite is true: unless you count shooting red crosses or mining to be "something to do," there is very little to be done during peacetime. And that is mostly a consequence of how big space is: as stated above, a day trip into hostile space is a several-region trek which just seems an insurmountable wall of apathy and effort, especially when there is no clear objective other than, "maybe we will muck about and kill a few dudes but most likely they will ignore us and we will go home bored."

So let's have a war!


On a scale of 1 to 10, how much would you mind losing this war and seeing your alliance and coalition dismantled?
Leigh Akiga
Kuhri Innovations
#36 - 2013-08-25 20:46:53 UTC
ITS HAPPENING
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#37 - 2013-08-25 20:48:46 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
There needs to be another war soon. Peace makes for little reason to log in but to amass space money. Having the spoils of war is great, and everyone appreciates them; but, most of the fun in this curiously excellent spaceship sandbox is in the actual taking rather than in the having.


just blast spacemonkeys, you should execute a corp in the CFC to assure the others don't mess with you... its evil but it has to be done from time to time to assure you don't lock like softies, nullsec has to be ruled with an iron fist to keep it under control

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#38 - 2013-08-25 20:53:15 UTC
Andski wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Then instead of setting people blue and paying them a ton of isk i.e BL, try killing them instead :)

People who lose wars shouldn't pretend to have valuable input for those who win them
It's almost as if you did not read the topic at hand.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#39 - 2013-08-25 21:21:40 UTC
Andski wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Interesting...your business managers seem to have a different opinion about the acquisition of in-game wealth.
Perhaps they have different uses for it than you.


Hey maybe you should start an alliance with promises of ~fair~ income distribution and steamroll everyone else out of nullsec


I have to hand it to you. Your ability to troll in one sentence is exceptional.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-08-25 22:25:01 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
You know, for a change of pace someone else could be the aggressor.


El Digin wrote:
Blueballing is the most effective strategy in the game.


Many of us have already tried to explain to you the reasons why attacking Goonswarm proper isn't really an option but let me re-iterate a few of them in case you forgot:

force projection
invlunerable logistics
free intel
reinforcement timers
structure HP amounts
lack of friendly fire, etc.

Without rebalancing these and probably other game mechanics, a "war" against the CFC amounts to heaping piles of ISK onto a campfire and roasting marshmellows while we tell ghost stories.

Now, there are a few groups who could make some headway under the current system. They're not. I don't know why. I'm sure they have their reasons for playing it safe . . . most likely because it's safer.

So, that just leaves you with Harry Forever killing your cynos in VFK, and we all know the only way he's going to be successful is if he has a mini-nuke or some sort of Goon-doomsday device.

Congratulations. You won EVE. The End!